The Facebook debacle & other issues

7 hours ago, belpita said:

The what now…? 

*in a deep soap-opera narrator voice* : Previously on The Thread (tm):

The 3D modeling of the early body parts, etc, where it was implied that it was all a one man show, but turned out it was outsourced. the actual modeler popped by the forum apparently in the dude thread to post some thoughts, was it actually the modeler or not im not sure, but its a unique enough handle that has some credibilty to it.

On 8/11/2022 at 3:59 AM, Sebby said:

omg I'd love a bodybag for my dolls tbh

Not to drag us off topic again, but I just saw this on FB. 🤣

https://www.stellarevolutiondesigns.com/products/bjd-doll-body-bag-pre-order-now

 

Back ON topic...I remember that thread by the scuptor! It was fascinating stuff, even if we can never be 100% on its veracity. If it IS true, it's very disappointing that Danny doesn't acknowledge the original sculptors of any of his dolls. Even Volks acknowledges theirs - the Icons being sculpted by ZOUKEI-MURA comes to mind.

Part of why I love the indie doll scene is everybody sharing their favorite artists' work around, even for stuff as small as the socks their doll's wearing. People will still laud you for the idea even if you need people with skills you don't have yourself to actually execute it!

Okay, so I spent the last couple of days reading up to page 50 of this thread to summarize some of the events.

Just so we're clear, any discussions on the ethics of marketing Smart Dolls to kids, the "Fortious/Only The Brave/the prototype garage", etc. were not included because IMO to each, their own. Some people agree with it, others don't. So I focused mainly on Danny's behaviour towards customers. 

If you wanna continue this, edit it or share it anywhere, be my guest. I don't know if I'll continue with the rest.

Anyways, here we go. 

----------

April 20, 2019 (page 1) - One of the biggest (if not the biggest) Smart Doll groups on Facebook was Smart Doll Lovers. Danny was quite active there. It was run by Lisa, who was friends with Danny.

There was another Facebook group of Smart Doll fans that allowed more critical discussions of Smart Doll products and business practices. This group briefly used a banner of Danny photoshopped as a Nazi. Not every member of the group knew this. The page owner took it down after complaints and apologized for it.

Nonetheless, it  upset Danny. As a result,  everyone who was part of that facebook group, was banned and blocked from the Smart Doll Lover Facebook group. Baldylox was one of these people. He was eventually unblocked in May 2019 (see page 7).

That wasn't all. Danny also blocked members of that FB group from ordering from the Smart Doll store. In order to do this, Danny contacted some of these people himself through Instagram, claimed that he needed their order ID to "check something" and then promptly cancelled their orders. Kitsooni was one of these people contacted like this. She was banned from the store.

 

April 24, 2019 (page 2) - On Mika's preorder page, Danny added info that Smart Doll preserves the right to cancel any orders without having to state a reason why and that all cancellations are final. The disclaimer was to protect the company from fraud.

 

May 2, 2019 (page 7) - This actually happened in March 2019.  In the Smart Doll Lovers group, a girl posted about receiving a doll with two differently weathered shoes. One was a lot more weathered than the other. She very politely voiced being unhappy about it in the SmD Lover group. Danny Choo wouldn't exchange the shoes. His response was "send back the whole doll or no refund".

The girl ended up keeping the doll. According to Danny, she later did a chargeback through Paypal. According to the girl, she opened a Paypal dispute as instructed by Danny to ensure that everything go smoothly.

This caused Danny to start expressing how he needs to "set expectations to avoid customers being unhappy" and explain the wabi-sabi philosophy

 

March 16 2020 (page 9) - Danny includes a excerpt that if people are disappointed by the shape of a thigh to warn them from buying Smart Dolls. This was in reference to someone complaining about how Eiji's thighs looked really weird.

 

March 17 2020 (page 10) - Bbots bought  a wig that was faulty. They were asked to return for a refund, which they did. After receiving the wig, Danny claimed that the wig didn't have flaws and that Bbots should buy wigs elsewhere from now on.  Danny also encouraged them to share their experience with others. Bbots did just that by sharing their messages, much to Danny's anger. He then proceeded to rant about customers complaining about "perfectly good wigs" for weeks.

 

March 18 2020 (page  10) - Danny showed off the Gemini head sculpt. He wanted to create a sculpt that could be used for male and female dolls. He referred to Gemini as a "shim". This upset people because it came off as transphobic. Danny apologized for it somewhat.

 

April 8 2020 (page 12) - Danny puts up a new disclaimer about his dolls, saying that if you don't proper arm strength that you shouldn't buy his dolls amongst other things. He also claims that all his time goes to writing disclaimers to "better inform potential customers that their products aren't perfect" and that is why new products are delayed.

 

May 13 2020 (page 13) - Danny claims in a tweet that Smart Doll clothes do not fit other doll brands. This isn't true. Some items do fit other dolls.

 

May 21 2020 (page 15) - Danny unveils Monday. IgelFullMetal pointed out in the SmD Lovers group that her description comes from a place of privilege and that not everyone can afford to do what they want. They were banned from the group.

 

May 21 2020 (page 15) - That same day,  the Smd Lovers group was archived. Lisa and James claimed that recent "troll" posts (= posts critical of Danny and Smart Dolls)  were responsible for causing Danny to leave the group and that they didn't want to leave the group to other people. Lisa later told Baldylox that people weren't actually banned in the days leading up to this. They had been deleted in order to archive the group.

 

May  27 2020 (page 18) - A customer named Chad was a first time customer. He placed an order and was asked to answer  some questions about how he heard about Smart Doll, etc.  He wasn't sure if it was a bot or not. So after several days, he asked for his order to be cancelled because he didn't receive any  follow-up.

Danny answered his mail, claiming that they'd been trying to contact him for several days without any response from him  but that he'd be happy to refund him. After that, Danny sent Chad several messages saying that Chad is exactly the type of elitist customer that he wants to avoid doing business with and to please tell his friends to  NOT buy from Smart  Doll.

 

June 1 2020 (page 21) - In light of recent BLM events, Danny posted a statement that like other minorities, Smart Doll was a minority in the doll world and treated badly. He promptly took it down after several people said that being a Smart Doll owner is in no way the same as being a PoC or another minority. He posted a new statement which was less tone-deaf and then spent days claiming that people were giving him shit for the second statement, that as a doll maker, he wasn't allowed to voice his opinion on racism, etc.

 

July 31 2020 (page 35) - Danny sold a Moonlight in the old cocoa skin tone for 2.500 USD in  the prototype garage. She wasn't a prototype. She was a Moonlight that had been on  display in his store. He had always claimed that he didn't have any Moonlights. This upset a lot of people.

 

Sept 15 2020 (page 45) - After placing an order, Danny had contacted  a customer to ask for which SmD she was buying. When she replied that it was for a MDD, he immediately cancelled her order.

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This is some pretty good summarization @Eiko82. I would add maybe expand on the arm strength one (that it was in response to a disabled customer), the Monday one (why it sounded privileged), and that the last one was about clothes/accessories. Just for context purposes.

@monkeypizzasonic Thank you! You're right about the last point. I forgot to clarify that it was indeed an order for clothes/accessories.

As for the rest, I debated on how much detail to add in these summaries. I added the page numbers so that if people wanted, they could read more details and the discussions around it. I guess if other people make summaries of the rest and it's all added together in a separate thread, that info could definitely be added to it. 

2 hours ago, Eiko82 said:

@monkeypizzasonic Thank you! You're right about the last point. I forgot to clarify that it was indeed an order for clothes/accessories.

As for the rest, I debated on how much detail to add in these summaries. I added the page numbers so that if people wanted, they could read more details and the discussions around it. I guess if other people make summaries of the rest and it's all added together in a separate thread, that info could definitely be added to it. 

 

3 hours ago, Eiko82 said:

Okay, so I spent the last couple of days reading up to page 50 of this thread to summarize some of the events.

Just so we're clear, any discussions on the ethics of marketing Smart Dolls to kids, the "Fortious/Only The Brave/the prototype garage", etc. were not included because IMO to each, their own. Some people agree with it, others don't. So I focused mainly on Danny's behaviour towards customers. 

If you wanna continue this, edit it or share it anywhere, be my guest. I don't know if I'll continue with the rest.

Anyways, here we go. 

----------

April 20, 2019 (page 1) - One of the biggest (if not the biggest) Smart Doll groups on Facebook was Smart Doll Lovers. Danny was quite active there. It was run by Lisa, who was friends with Danny.

There was another Facebook group of Smart Doll fans that allowed more critical discussions of Smart Doll products and business practices. This group briefly used a banner of Danny photoshopped as a Nazi. Not every member of the group knew this. The page owner took it down after complaints and apologized for it.

Nonetheless, it  upset Danny. As a result,  everyone who was part of that facebook group, was banned and blocked from the Smart Doll Lover Facebook group. Baldylox was one of these people. He was eventually unblocked in May 2019 (see page 7).

That wasn't all. Danny also blocked members of that FB group from ordering from the Smart Doll store. In order to do this, Danny contacted some of these people himself through Instagram, claimed that he needed their order ID to "check something" and then promptly cancelled their orders. Kitsooni was one of these people contacted like this. She was banned from the store.

 

April 24, 2019 (page 2) - On Mika's preorder page, Danny added info that Smart Doll preserves the right to cancel any orders without having to state a reason why and that all cancellations are final. The disclaimer was to protect the company from fraud.

 

May 2, 2019 (page 7) - This actually happened in March 2019.  In the Smart Doll Lovers group, a girl posted about receiving a doll with two differently weathered shoes. One was a lot more weathered than the other. She very politely voiced being unhappy about it in the SmD Lover group. Danny Choo wouldn't exchange the shoes. His response was "send back the whole doll or no refund".

The girl ended up keeping the doll. According to Danny, she later did a chargeback through Paypal. According to the girl, she opened a Paypal dispute as instructed by Danny to ensure that everything go smoothly.

This caused Danny to start expressing how he needs to "set expectations to avoid customers being unhappy" and explain the wabi-sabi philosophy

 

March 16 2020 (page 9) - Danny includes a excerpt that if people are disappointed by the shape of a thigh to warn them from buying Smart Dolls. This was in reference to someone complaining about how Eiji's thighs looked really weird.

 

March 17 2020 (page 10) - Bbots bought  a wig that was faulty. They were asked to return for a refund, which they did. After receiving the wig, Danny claimed that the wig didn't have flaws and that Bbots should buy wigs elsewhere from now on.  Danny also encouraged them to share their experience with others. Bbots did just that by sharing their messages, much to Danny's anger. He then proceeded to rant about customers complaining about "perfectly good wigs" for weeks.

 

March 18 2020 (page  10) - Danny showed off the Gemini head sculpt. He wanted to create a sculpt that could be used for male and female dolls. He referred to Gemini as a "shim". This upset people because it came off as transphobic. Danny apologized for it somewhat.

 

April 8 2020 (page 12) - Danny puts up a new disclaimer about his dolls, saying that if you don't proper arm strength that you shouldn't buy his dolls amongst other things. He also claims that all his time goes to writing disclaimers to "better inform potential customers that their products aren't perfect" and that is why new products are delayed.

 

May 13 2020 (page 13) - Danny claims in a tweet that Smart Doll clothes do not fit other doll brands. This isn't true. Some items do fit other dolls.

 

May 21 2020 (page 15) - Danny unveils Monday. IgelFullMetal pointed out in the SmD Lovers group that her description comes from a place of privilege and that not everyone can afford to do what they want. They were banned from the group.

 

May 21 2020 (page 15) - That same day,  the Smd Lovers group was archived. Lisa and James claimed that recent "troll" posts (= posts critical of Danny and Smart Dolls)  were responsible for causing Danny to leave the group and that they didn't want to leave the group to other people. Lisa later told Baldylox that people weren't actually banned in the days leading up to this. They had been deleted in order to archive the group.

 

May  27 2020 (page 18) - A customer named Chad was a first time customer. He placed an order and was asked to answer  some questions about how he heard about Smart Doll, etc.  He wasn't sure if it was a bot or not. So after several days, he asked for his order to be cancelled because he didn't receive any  follow-up.

Danny answered his mail, claiming that they'd been trying to contact him for several days without any response from him  but that he'd be happy to refund him. After that, Danny sent Chad several messages saying that Chad is exactly the type of elitist customer that he wants to avoid doing business with and to please tell his friends to  NOT buy from Smart  Doll.

 

June 1 2020 (page 21) - In light of recent BLM events, Danny posted a statement that like other minorities, Smart Doll was a minority in the doll world and treated badly. He promptly took it down after several people said that being a Smart Doll owner is in no way the same as being a PoC or another minority. He posted a new statement which was less tone-deaf and then spent days claiming that people were giving him shit for the second statement, that as a doll maker, he wasn't allowed to voice his opinion on racism, etc.

 

July 31 2020 (page 35) - Danny sold a Moonlight in the old cocoa skin tone for 2.500 USD in  the prototype garage. She wasn't a prototype. She was a Moonlight that had been on  display in his store. He had always claimed that he didn't have any Moonlights. This upset a lot of people.

 

Sept 15 2020 (page 45) - After placing an order, Danny had contacted  a customer to ask for which SmD she was buying. When she replied that it was for a MDD, he immediately cancelled her order.

-------------

this was quite the read. i had no idea all that stuff happened.   Thank ya

5 hours ago, Eiko82 said:

Sept 15 2020 (page 45) - After placing an order, Danny had contacted  a customer to ask for which SmD she was buying. When she replied that it was for a MDD, he immediately cancelled her order.

 

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This Smartdoll page confirms that the event likely happened: https://info.smartdoll.jp/en/posts/designed-for-smart-doll-only

6 hours ago, Eiko82 said:

Just so we're clear, any discussions on the ethics of marketing Smart Dolls to kids, the "Fortious/Only The Brave/the prototype garage", etc. were not included because IMO to each, their own. Some people agree with it, others don't.

The thing with the kid centered marketing is the theories (Or actual practical reasons) that the company is using private importation as a means to circumvent proper safety testing.

I think we're trying to focus on mostly the social media related stuff in the summary though. Most of that we have proper evidence and sources we can use as proof, whereas a lot of the legal stuff is just theories/speculation until/unless someone actually sues him and the court records are made public.

22 minutes ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

a lot of the legal stuff is just theories/speculation until/unless someone actually sues him and the court records are made public.

A lot of safety regulations are preventive in nature, and that was the point of that perticular discussion.

personally I would rather avoid someone's kid getting hurt because they thought a product was safe for them because of images they saw.

if someone wants to give their kid a product despite age recomendations thats another discussion.

And its worth pointing out and reminding that there are no age recomendations on this product, because there is no requirement for them because of how they are aquired.

33 minutes ago, finnleo said:

A lot of safety regulations are preventive in nature, and that was the point of that perticular discussion.

personally I would rather avoid someone's kid getting hurt because they thought a product was safe for them because of images they saw.

For example, SmartDoll hands do come off really easily and would certainly represent a choking hazard for a small child.

Note that even ignoring imports, to sell to children in Japan, Smart Doll needs an ST mark. No Smart Doll packaging I've seen bears an ST mark or an age rating or warnings that parts may be choking hazards. All very standard things I've seen on other Japanese toys.

This is why a lot of figures and dolls are recommended for ages 14+ (I think? It's been a while since I did the research). Because if something is a collectable for adults, it doesn't need to fit the safety standards for kids. Other than choking hazards, this includes testing all materials to make sure they don't pinch tiny fingers, are not flammable, and don't contain paints, dyes, or any substance that is toxic and may be ingested if a small child were to put the item in their mouth.

Remember there's photos of a Japanese baby with a Smart Doll on the site as advertising. Or there were. I don't know if they've been replaced. If they are gone, I think I saved a copy.

Not sure how to feel about the fact i just saw an Instagram post of someone’s kid (elementary school age) wearing a Smartdoll Boycott bye-bye shirts, posing with a pile of SmDs wearing the same, and accordingly a caption supporting it. And its followup pic with the kid making an angry face and the caption saying people who get mad about red cloth need to care about real problems. If I under correctly, Danny didn’t actually make any shirts like this, just posted the images and encouraged ppl to use them to make goods, so someone got a child sized and eight doll sized shirts specially made for this photo op.
 

Why does the little kid need to be hearing about and wearing a joke t-shirt for online drama 😕 I don’t know if it would be better or worse if the kid actually has no awareness of the internet drama and photo situation, and is just going along with parent’s photo idea and pose …(Also the caption said Smartdolls were “designed for children” and that’s factually just not true lol)

 

@Eiko82 i know there has to be a cutoff on how much detail to put in each event but to me leaving out the part that a specific actual (disabled) customer was the trigger for that incident is as though the wig incident had no mention of bbots/any particular order, or the shoe weathering incident didn’t include the first two paragraphs about the girl’s specific order. The reason these incidents are so galling to me is because they are just one specific individual’s order or experience leading to a completely outsize response on a company scale/SmD social media, which is a breathtaking level of unprofessional behavior to me. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by ebil

I must admit, in my many years still in the hobby, the idea of marketing vinyl BJDs to children makes less and less sense. Especially the young, YOUNG demography he is aiming for.

Let's just pretend that CJ DID end up putting a minimum age limit on their products, and also slipped in a detailed hazards manual regarding choking hazards (wishful thinking, I know), there is absolutely no way you could fully child proof the doll, or make it 'safer' for children without compromising something. The inspiration he had for SMD wasn't for children in the first place, and he hasn't exactly been innovative when he made the whole system his own.

 

I am a full grown adult, but even I still clip my skin MANY times between the exposed joints in an attempt to get 'just the right angle' and it hurt like mad each time. Worth it, but still painful regardless. I know I can be a klutz sometimes- but SURELY I am not the only one. With children, and their little hands, wouldn't they risk being pinched even moreso? Also, no matter how reinforced the skeleton is, it is still plastic and can fracture or split open from simple falls. (Imagine a kid playing with their SMD, and their whole upper torso just lobs right off because dolly-dearest had an unfortunate fall off a table whilst the child was at school. This is where horror content stems from, people........I'm kidding) Anyway, the list goes on.

DC appears to be very specific, he can go after the same minuscule point for WEEKS, but has he ever properly approached the concept of a vinyl doll for a child? Has he really touched on what a CHILD should expect from a vinyl BJD, rather than let them think the doll is just a giga-Barbie?

I for one am not the best child-minder, but I remember getting my first doll when I was eleven and still learning what it meant to be 'careful'. A BJD was nothing like what I had played with before. And thought I wasn't rough in any regards of my life outside of how I talk, there are still things that are not reversible on my first doll simply because I was just a little too uninformed when I got mine.

 

Or I could just be slow, who knows.

Edited August 18, 2022 by freakie-oppa

Maybe we have one section for social media posts, and another for possible legal issues/safety hazards/marketing to kids/all of that? If anyone wants to write it? IDK, ultimately it's up to the mods what gets put in the general info post.

@freakie-oppa Monday to me looks like a giant vintage Skipper (Barbie's little sister).

Most kids from 6 years to 10+  will chew the hands..... also you need to dismantle part of your SmD to put on some dresses like Tshirt and need some strength to reassemble.

Hoping the child don't mind if their doll get stained very easily from not so very clean hands, surface, dark fabric and doll clothes and wigs.

 

6 hours ago, freakie-oppa said:

I must admit, in my many years still in the hobby, the idea of marketing vinyl BJDs to children makes less and less sense. Especially the young, YOUNG demography he is aiming for.

A little off topic here, but it's similarly strange to me, especially given the fact that he's open about designing dolls he personally finds attractive. It's like he keeps toeing the line between the adult collector's items they were originally intended to be and trying to PG-ify them to make it less weird to give to children, like removing the nipples from the bust parts altogether. It's just a very strange balance to try to strike in an expensive novelty hobby like this one.

I would like to emphasise that Lisa from SmD Lovers was not Danny's friend per se. I think they did at times talk on the phone, more likely him calling her, but I would hesitate to call it anything other than a working relationship in order to promote SmD. Back in those days, he was also more personal or hands-on with a lot of customers, because the business was still small enough that he would remember individual sales/customers. 

Lisa later had a mental breakdown because of all the drama around the group, which was added on by I think both family and personal health issues. She completely removed all her social media presence and her husband had to take care of whatever was left of the group, eventually closing it. 

I believe the tension between whatever Danny may have been pressuring from behind the scenes (he did leave the group towards the end) and members of the group putting the blame on Lisa for his decisions contributed to her breaking down. The core idea of the group was to just be a kind of happy doll place, showing pretty photos of dolls. But it became an insurmountable task to moderate, when so many posts deteriorated into "off-topic" discussions, often with nasty personal attacks. 

I know for a fact that Lisa did not agree with all of Danny's ideas or opinions, but she may not have felt at liberty to express that or she might not have wanted to make that particular FB group a forum for those discussions. I think that when you start a forum of any kind, you are allowed to make the rules for it and you can also kick people for breaking those rules. 

15 hours ago, finnleo said:

The thing with the kid centered marketing is the theories (Or actual practical reasons) that the company is using private importation as a means to circumvent proper safety testing.

I am pretty sure he wrote about how he is sending his dolls to kids for them to stress-test. Might have been a Cortex only thing..?
 

13 hours ago, Katsudon said:

Note that even ignoring imports, to sell to children in Japan, Smart Doll needs an ST mark. No Smart Doll packaging I've seen bears an ST mark or an age rating or warnings that parts may be choking hazards. All very standard things I've seen on other Japanese toys.

He often write about how important it is to produce a kid-safe product, but yeah, no indications of them being approved..?

8 hours ago, Yumeiro said:

I am pretty sure he wrote about how he is sending his dolls to kids for them to stress-test. Might have been a Cortex only thing..?

I believe we were over and done with the cortex cancellation stuff / pondering before this marketing ploy began. not invested enough in the topic to go check for sure, but there probably was some mention about sending test dolls out into the wild.

sending out cortexes (especially in kit form) to kids would have been a hoot though.

13 hours ago, finnleo said:

I believe we were over and done with the cortex cancellation stuff / pondering before this marketing ploy began. not invested enough in the topic to go check for sure, but there probably was some mention about sending test dolls out into the wild.

sending out cortexes (especially in kit form) to kids would have been a hoot though.

Bob the bulider wouldn't be able to fix those.    i think they replaced the babie pic's on shoe's site, 4-6 yr olds 

Edited August 19, 2022 by DollyDearest

I don't think I will ever understand how a parent can give a +500 usd doll to their child, especially one that could break so easily with the wrong move. 

From a license plate frame a few decades ago on a brand-new BMW:

"Saw it, Wanted it, Threw a Fit, Got it." 

Also, see: "But Mom/Dad, All the Cool Kids have one!" 

Edited August 19, 2022 by battrastard

These are probably the sort of parents with too much money who don't pay enough attention to the stuff they're buying for their kid.

Or one or both parents are into the BJD/expensive figures hobby and want to buy one for their kid so the kid doesn't mess with their expensive stuff, so they see ads with kids playing with SmD and just grab one of those. Or they decide they want an SmD and buy one "for their kid", but kid only gets to play with it under supervision.

That last one is probably the best-case scenario. Worst case is he's somehow found a small clientele of extremally wealthy people who can afford to buy their kids an entire $500 doll every few months and he keeps all the kid-centric ads up because it's enough to distract them from the rest of his advertising.

5 hours ago, belpita said:

I don't think I will ever understand how a parent can give a +500 usd doll to their child, especially one that could break so easily with the wrong move. 

Depends on how much you earn in a month, for some people  (lucky them) 500$ are like 100$ (or 50$)for someone else.