The Facebook debacle & other issues

34 minutes ago, chantelle said:

Adding to the discussion, but I wonder if Danny Choo wants to extend his customer base to even younger kids? I believe that most of the kids buying Smartdolls are 6-12, but weirdly enough, I saw a picture of a toddler on his website once? I don't know it just feels off to me, I already don't think Smartdolls are a suitable toy for kids. I hope no one thinks its a good idea to give a toddler one of these. 

That's kind of what gets me. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, I initially assumed that SmartDolls would be more interesting to children aged 12+. I think at that age a child can be mature enough to handle a SmartDoll, maybe they've even picked up and been practicing a creative hobby that can tie into dolls, maybe maybe they can even start doing odd jobs around the neighborhood to earn some money to put towards the purchase. 

I think that was certainly the age when I started to .. I don't know how to express that - develop my interests? That's when I really got into anime or earnestly tried learning how to draw. It's also, coincidentally, around the age when I first started using the internet for more than just browser games. I think that also plays a big role here. If SmartDolls had been around in my childhood, I would never have been exposed to them before the age of 12-13. 

Now, I'm not a parent and my sister definitely wasn't one of them when she was younger, but I don't want to rule out that even younger children, maybe 6-9, can be mature and responsible enough to handle a SmartDoll, but toddlers? That's just asking for a disaster to happen. 

I think it does depend on the child. Some young kids can be more mature than others so it's on the discretion of the parent to decide that, especially if the price comes into play. AG dolls were meant to be for a specific age group (girls who were 8-12. The creator said she wanted to create a doll that wasn't a baby doll and wasn't a Barbie so that girls could better play and identify with the dolls and just be themselves.) But I think what can happen is, younger siblings see their older siblings with AG dolls and they want their own. But even AG came out with a line called Wellie Wishers, which I think are meant for the kids around 6 and under. The little sister equivalent to AG. I'm also guessing that Wellie Wishers have less tiny parts that could be choking hazards but don't quote me. 

Sorry if this is off topic but I wonder why the concept of BJDs haven't caught on in the West yet. Primarily, adults who like more mature...interaction with their dolls but don't want the size of Barbies. Smart Doll I think has breached that in a way because they're so heavily marketed by DC to a Western audiences. Smart Dolls are the ones you see most often in more wide spread videos on YT. They definitely have more of that fashion doll appeal. Not saying that Smart Dolls are replacing Barbies and Rainbow High etc. But I think because a lot of those dolls do have a more anime look, more colorful and more exaggerated, the jump to Smart Doll seems understandable. 

 

1 hour ago, Manaphyyy said:

It's also kind of wild that the site recommends an extra pair of hands in the screenshot, which adds an extra ~$100 hand pack to the already expensive purchase for a small child. If they really wanted these to be "for kids" in any capacity, and the open hands are the deal breaker for some reason, the fist hands should come as a standard addition for orders--or at least be thrown in as a courtesy when the buyer responds they're purchasing for a young child. (For the benefit of the doubt, it's possible they already do include them for the second case, but I just haven't seen any mention of it).

I had the same exact thought! I wonder if anyone has decided to get the hand packs for this reason. I hope they at least swap the hands out for these customers. I kind of doubt it since theres nothing that mentions the idea but I really hope so.

1 hour ago, RetroKanojo said:

I think that was certainly the age when I started to .. I don't know how to express that - develop my interests? That's when I really got into anime or earnestly tried learning how to draw. It's also, coincidentally, around the age when I first started using the internet for more than just browser games. I think that also plays a big role here. If SmartDolls had been around in my childhood, I would never have been exposed to them before the age of 12-13. 

I think part of the reason is because people just let their kids on Youtube and TikTok. In the past (at least when I was growing up), I think parents would only let their kids loose on the web starting at like 10-13, but these days its common for really young kids to be allowed to watch stuff alone.  

1 hour ago, RetroKanojo said:

Now, I'm not a parent and my sister definitely wasn't one of them when she was younger, but I don't want to rule out that even younger children, maybe 6-9, can be mature and responsible enough to handle a SmartDoll, but toddlers? That's just asking for a disaster to happen. 

Exactly! Kitty hands or not, something will happen and it won't be pretty. I don't know why anyone would think this is a good idea. 

As for younger kids (6-9) being able to handle one of these dolls, I think it's do-able. I have a younger cousin that age and I let her hold my dolls. She's always been careful & respectful but I'm not sure if I could leave her alone with it since she still is a kid. That's me being cautious though and I don't have the perspective of a parent.

1 hour ago, ladyandlion said:

Sorry if this is off topic but I wonder why the concept of BJDs haven't caught on in the West yet.

My theory is partially because of a common fear of dolls. Specifically ones with inset eyes. Probably uncanny valley plus all those horror movies. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by chantelle

3 hours ago, RetroKanojo said:

If SmartDolls had been around in my childhood, I would never have been exposed to them before the age of 12-13. 

Speaking as someone who found out about Smart Doll in 2014 (I was on 4th grade, so about 10-11yrs old), even with financially secure parents, they thought I was crazy asking for one 😂 To be fair, I had committed a number of horrors against my American Girl dolls just a few years prior... and of course, the typical beheading of Barbies before that...

I definitely can't imagine giving one to a small child, and I got my first Smart Doll when I was fifteen... I still think I was too young looking back haha. Although, I did struggle with getting the limbs apart even to clean her fully 😬 so I guess it might not be as bad of a choking hazard as a Dollfie Dream who comes apart with ease, but it's a hazard nonetheless. 

2 hours ago, Emil said:

so I guess it might not be as bad of a choking hazard as a Dollfie Dream who comes apart with ease, but it's a hazard nonetheless. 

Dollfie are specifically stated to be for age 15+, so not even an option for younger kids. 

4 hours ago, Emil said:

I definitely can't imagine giving one to a small child, and I got my first Smart Doll when I was fifteen... I still think I was too young looking back haha. Although, I did struggle with getting the limbs apart even to clean her fully

I am a full-grown adult, and while getting the hands off a SmD is a bit of a hassle.... guess what would be a fantastic way for a small kid to cause mischief? HER TORSO!
The breasts are just like... sitting over her torso piece, but unlike Volks there's not more material underneath so as soon as u start rotating her around and bending backwards/forwards a giant GAP opens up. A little kid will absolutely get things stuck in there, perhaps break the edges..... etc etc

and to be that super boring lady - the hair being a wig and not affixed to the head is basically teh first choking hazard straight out the box

1 hour ago, BeyondTime said:

Dollfie are specifically stated to be for age 15+, so not even an option for younger kids. 

Unfortunately that isn't enough to deter people, but I don't see kids with DD near as much as SmD at least

10 minutes ago, Anna-neko said:

I am a full-grown adult, and while getting the hands off a SmD is a bit of a hassle.... guess what would be a fantastic way for a small kid to cause mischief? HER TORSO!
The breasts are just like... sitting over her torso piece, but unlike Volks there's not more material underneath so as soon as u start rotating her around and bending backwards/forwards a giant GAP opens up. A little kid will absolutely get things stuck in there, perhaps break the edges..... etc etc

For sure. I think I stored Trinity's sleeping mask in her torso 🤣 it always surprised me that Danny talked about having so much extra flashing from the vinyl, but they couldn't bother to add (or perhaps simply not remove) a bit of vinyl under the bust to prevent this.

1 hour ago, Emil said:

Unfortunately that isn't enough to deter people, but I don't see kids with DD near as much as SmD at least

Sure, but it means Volks is warning people that these dolls aren't appropriate for small children as opposed to actively marketing them to them.

15 hours ago, Rajke said:

What surprises me was the writing style the mails. There are no noticeable spelling mistakes except for the words done on purpose. 

Yeah, honestly the emails look like they were all written by the same person (Danny himself) instead of multiple different people. The grammatical fluency is the same for all of them, everyone knows to type "YouTube" instead of "youtube" or "Youtube" etc. It's also only daughters they're buying dolls for, not even one person among his many customers has a son who'd want a smartdoll? 🤔 Since he advocates for diversity and all, you'd think he'd want to highlight that boys can play with dolls too, right?

I have a hard time believing any parent who isn't into dolls or anime themselves going on his website and being impressed with it (one of the emails said it being "a high class experience" pfft). I mean, sure, at first glance it looks like a regular website but then you get pages and pages worth of "reasons not to buy this product" and other weird stuff. Then he hounds you with emails where you have to justify that you're indeed qualified to buy this product that you shouldn't buy. To me it feels like most people who aren't familiar with this guy's antics would think it's too much of a hassle and not even bother. 🤷‍♀️

Edited December 2, 2022 by mizya
fixed typo

2 hours ago, mizya said:

Yeah, honestly the emails look like they were all written by the same person (Danny himself) instead of multiple different people. 

I can understand why one could come to this conclusion, but I doubt Danny would go through the trouble to forge those mails. 😂 I mean, I might be wrong, but I think him 'cherry-picking' real mails is for more probable in this case. Or perhaps it shows that his customers - or at least those who buy these dolls for their children - all come from 'similar' societal backgrounds?  I also know that there are parents who collect these dolls and who then go on to buy their child(ren) a SmartDoll as well. Naturally, if you see your parent collecting those dolls, you'd get curious about them. Again, tiny sample size, so we can't really draw any real conclusions. I do feel like some of those mails have slightly varying tones though.

I also noticed that there is a distinct lack of little boys wanting SmartDolls, but I think that is simply because 1. Even though the idea is much more accepted nowadays, dolls are still primarily considered to be toys for girls and 2. If a boy would like to play with a male doll (for idk self-representational play? Is that a thing?) -.. he'd be largely out of luck with SmartDoll.

Honestly, that's why I find this whole thing so fascinating! There are so many layers to unpack. I'd love to take a look at Danny's customer statistics/profiling but alas, this is probably the closest I will ever get to that.

2 hours ago, RetroKanojo said:

I doubt Danny would go through the trouble to forge those mails. 😂

He's gone through the trouble of mistranslating an announcement from Volks in order to damage their reputation. His whole "self-made businessman" image is more than questionable considering how much he went on about Cortex revolutionising the fashion doll market, the project then majorly flopping, and yet it seemingly had zero impact on his company. I doubt his company would have gotten where it has if his dad wasn't Jimmy Choo, and he's getting at least some funding from him. He's always putting a spin on things to make himself look good, and for the longest time he pretended he was the one doing everything. Only in recent years he's learned that highlighting his employees and artists he collabs with makes him look better in people's eyes, so naturally he moved on to do that instead.

Dude also goes through the trouble of stalking his customers on social media to know if they "mistreat" his products (like dress smartdoll clothes on non-smartdolls) or say something about him/his products that he doesn't like (despite saying he "doesn't want glowing reviews" so that's why he doesn't gift dolls to popular hobbyists, 'cause he wants people to be honest) to ban them from buying from his shop. He's a very busy man from what I've observed.

But in the end, everyone is free to believe what they want about this man. 🙂

Edited December 2, 2022 by mizya
fixed pronoun

17 hours ago, chantelle said:

 

My theory is partially because of a common fear of dolls. Specifically ones with inset eyes. Probably uncanny valley plus all those horror movies. 

I think it's also because purchasing BJDs, and even DDs, can be complicated unless you invest some time into learning about the hobby.

With BJDs, the sites often look sketchy to westerners/people unfamilar with the hobby because of the non-native English & older web shop templates. You see a doll listed on the site for, say $400-$600, but then you go to the actual product page and you encounter all these drop-down menus with $$$ options. Faceup for $80, wig for $40, outfit for $150, shoes for $50, body blushing for $90, etc. and suddenly you're paying 50-100% more than you expected, AND the doll won't even ship for months. If you're a parent with zero knowledge of what's normal in the hobby, you now have to google wtf "faceups" and a "body blushing" mean and if you need to buy them, and you're already soured on the experience from the unexpected costs and suspicious because of the unfamiliar website. If you want to learn about the hobby, people will tell you to join DoA but even that is off-putting to a lot of people because of the restrictions & manual approvals necessary to use the forums in their full capacity.

With DDs, I often see people say they want to get into them because they like a specific character model, but the doll they wanted is long sold out and too expensive secondhand. They're not interested in saving up and waiting an indefinite amount of time for a secondhand one to pop up because they don't know if they'll enjoy the hobby enough to justify the price. With new releases--unless you get into them via the few standard models or a preorder--you need to be on standby until something you like is announced. The clickwar & lottery experiences put newbies off. Most newbies aren't interested in refreshing the site for an hour or two for a chance at buying a clickwar doll. I've also seen people say they bought a preorder doll, and then bought a SmartDoll during the production period because they don't want to wait a year to enjoy their new, shiny hobby.  If Volks just opened up an online Dream Choice service to GL members only, I think we'd see a lot more newbies starting with DDs.

The SmartDoll site is very polished & as close as possible to an "off the shelf" buying experience. You see a page with lots of doll options, you add the one you want to the cart, you buy it. You grab an outfit set off the site, or off etsy. If you or a relative are crafty, you can immediately print the online patterns and sew something while waiting for the doll to be delivered. It ships soon after and your kid has their doll by their birthday, Christmas, whatever occasion you're buying for. 

7 hours ago, mizya said:

Yeah, honestly the emails look like they were all written by the same person (Danny himself) instead of multiple different people. The grammatical fluency is the same for all of them, everyone knows to type "YouTube" instead of "youtube" or "Youtube" etc. 

Yeah, something about these emails sound really artificial. Like it feels more like a plug for his product rather than an actual piece of evidence.

I noticed that all of the "parents" don't seem to have any sort of icon (just the default generated gmail one) which is really suspicious imo.

On 12/2/2022 at 1:35 PM, chantelle said:

Yeah, something about these emails sound really artificial. Like it feels more like a plug for his product rather than an actual piece of evidence.

I noticed that all of the "parents" don't seem to have any sort of icon (just the default generated gmail one) which is really suspicious imo.

smd  sus -ness for sale.

Whilst I think it'd be hilarious if D.Choo forged numerous emails to back up his case, I cringed when I remembered he has an avid fanbase of grown adults old enough to have young children, whom are vaguely delusional enough to either outright ignore the problems of the brand, or delusional enough to flat out deny the issues that could occur with treating a SMD like a Monster High gal. So emails like that personally aren't that far fetched in my opinion. It's a little cult over there, afterall.

 

Personally, as many people brought up before, I'd be more concerned about the choking hazard aspect of the SMD, considering that children historically have accidentally swallowed toys as big as an SMD's foot. Removing hazards out of the equation, his dolls are NOT durable enough for the basic play that comes with dolls.

From my lengthy time rooting through box openings, whenever I stumbled upon children unboxing SMDs, I find that all of them had difficulties putting on the wig. No matter how careful a child can be, some of the roughest SMD handling you'd ever see comes in those moments these kids are attempting to shove these wigs onto their dolls. And it's not like they're careless, it's just genuinely difficult without a bit of finger strength. Heads are jerked around, the neck gets pushed to it's limit- I wonder how long the doll will last when even a basic part of the doll can be such a pronounced struggle.

The fact that he doesn't take any precaution in making SMD's child friendly despite being so gungho about the idea, really shows that D.Choo does not care about the fanbase he sells too despite enjoying the fame and praise that comes with it. I can bet my kidney that if a parent put up a scathing review about the SMD, and the possible difficulties of getting spare parts to replace damaged limbs, he'd turn around and make a lengthy post along the lines of 'Well I never said it was FOR kids, parents need to teach their kids to play with my products. So maybe parents need to consider their options if they don't have the capacity to teach. 😒"

Edited December 12, 2022 by freakie-oppa

1 hour ago, freakie-oppa said:

The fact that he doesn't take any precaution in making SMD's child friendly despite being so gungho about the idea, really shows that D.Choo does not care about the fanbase he sells too despite enjoying the fame and praise that comes with it. I can bet my kidney that if a parent put up a scathing review about the SMD, and the possible difficulties of getting spare parts to replace damaged limbs, he'd turn around and make a lengthy post along the lines of 'Well I never said it was FOR kids, parents need to teach their kids to play with my products. So maybe parents need to consider their options if they don't have the capacity to teach. 😒"

More than likely, he will just block those who have a legitimate complaint, no matter what the issue is. Then, he'll go online and whine about how parents don't teach their spawn about "wabi-sabi" or maintenance, or whatever "gripe-du-jour" is currently in fashion in the Virtue-Signaling World at the moment. 

Honestly, you just can't win... (I gave up after he got rid of his OC's, after promising that he wouldn't do that.) Meh... whatever... 

"Caveat Emptor" (buyer, beware)

Edited December 12, 2022 by battrastard

I remember when I ordered my first Smart Doll, I was quite surprised to get the email from Danny asking me to confirm my address and why I had chosen that particular smartie. I didn't think the head guy of a company had time for things like that.

My social media presence is minimal, I dropped out of farce book a couple of years ago and only used it really to keep in touch with family and friends. The only other social media platforms I have an account with are Linkedin and Twitter. Not used the former for ages and twitter I only signed up to a few months ago for the smart doll release anouncements, so my exposure there is minimal.

Reading through some of this thread has been a real eye opener and made me think that by not been active in the scene I'm likeky missing more of the bad stuff than the good.

On 12/11/2022 at 6:53 PM, freakie-oppa said:

The fact that he doesn't take any precaution in making SMD's child friendly despite being so gungho about the idea, really shows that D.Choo does not care about the fanbase he sells too despite enjoying the fame and praise that comes with it.

Yeah he clearly does not care about his audience. He continually chooses to market a product not meant for children to children. It really shows in the past and still shows now.

This was a long time ago (late 2010s), but there was this weird period where he’d use ads featuring children posing with SmD despite fact the site was full of products not appropriate for children. The “adult” oriented stuff is all gone now, so its much more kid-friendly now. However, the fact he tried marketing to kids when the "adult" products were very accessible on the website is just irresponsible. Even now SmD still aren’t suitable for kids (choking hazard, fragility, design, etc). He really just should’ve stuck to an adult audience and left it at that.

Edited December 13, 2022 by chantelle
updated wording

I agree that Smartdoll shouldn’t be for kids under the age of at least 12 years. Smartdoll is a product that in Europe never can receive the CE marking because Smartdoll as a kids toy will never pass for the Conform European requirements. Shoking hazard, parts that can break and leave sharp etched etc. 
 

It doesn’t mean that Smartdoll is bad quality but indicates that they are not suited as a child’s toy. Danny should focus on the audience Smartdoll is actually ment for. Instead of trying to be something else. 

2 hours ago, Rajke said:

I agree that Smartdoll shouldn’t be for kids under the age of at least 12 years. Smartdoll is a product that in Europe never can receive the CE marking because Smartdoll as a kids toy will never pass for the Conform European requirements. Shoking hazard, parts that can break and leave sharp etched etc. 

This is a really good point. I assume it also doesn't match child-safety standards in other countries as well.

It kind of brings into question the legality of it all. Like, is Danny actually allowed to market the product so heavily to kids if this is the case? It's pretty hard to argue that Smartdolls aren't basically treated as a kids toy. He's constantly sharing customer photos/videos of children, his website features kids, he mentions his customers being kids or parents, even states on the "What is Smart Doll?" page that Smartdolls are "made by kids for kids", etc. Kind of bizarre thinking about how he writes all those lengthy posts about "reasons not to buy" or the "entitled" but theres nothing about this. No disclaimer that's like "not meant for kids under 13" or an equivalent age.

21 hours ago, chantelle said:

This is a really good point. I assume it also doesn't match child-safety standards in other countries as well.

It kind of brings into question the legality of it all. Like, is Danny actually allowed to market the product so heavily to kids if this is the case? It's pretty hard to argue that Smartdolls aren't basically treated as a kids toy. He's constantly sharing customer photos/videos of children, his website features kids, he mentions his customers being kids or parents, even states on the "What is Smart Doll?" page that Smartdolls are "made by kids for kids", etc. Kind of bizarre thinking about how he writes all those lengthy posts about "reasons not to buy" or the "entitled" but theres nothing about this. No disclaimer that's like "not meant for kids under 13" or an equivalent age.

On the legal part: as a non business person you are allowed to import the Smartdoll for yourself.
(Danny actually don’t use the EPA rules for the Netherlands which makes the import duties higher than with Volks that uses the EPA rules. )

On the other side it is not possible to start a shop here in Europe to sell Smartdoll. Every product sold within the EU (produced after 1995 to be exactly) must have the CE marking. To receive the CE marking you must have a manual in certain languages, the product must be safe for the target audience (which is definitely not the case), tested etc.. Figures and Dollfie’s are targeted for a different audience and for those products a CE marking would be possible. But due to the small market too expensive for the low quantity.

Handmade items falls in a different category and therefore the CE marking is not obliged due to the small amount. But those items could not be targeted at children. 

There are shops that specialises In importing foreign (handmade) products like HEO in Germany. Those items are marked as collector items for age 15+.

In other words: as a European based shop you can’t sell Smartdoll as a new product. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Rajke

@Rajke Thank you for explaining, this makes a lot of sense!

2 hours ago, Rajke said:

In other words: as a European based shop you can’t sell Smartdoll as a new product. 

Where does this put Anime Sugoi? I'm sure that they are the official Smart Doll shop in the EU but I can't be sure which country they are actually operating from.

Good explanation of how it works. I remember having to add the CE mark to a lot of products back in the mid 1990's. Everything from packaging to plastic injection moulding tools.

14 hours ago, Rajke said:

In other words: as a European based shop you can’t sell Smartdoll as a new product. 

I'm a little confused about this as well. 
Anime Sugoi is a store based in Neustadt, Germany and they are "an official retailer of Smart Doll goodies". They don't seem to be marketing to children the way CJ does, but I don't actually see any age ratings/recommended age thingies either. I'm kind of tempted to shoot them a message posing as a parent, who wants to buy a SmD for their toddler, asking if they think it's good for children.  Would be interesting to see what they would have to say on the matter.

 

16 hours ago, Rajke said:

(Danny actually don’t use the EPA rules for the Netherlands which makes the import duties higher than with Volks that uses the EPA rules. )

I always wondered why I paid more taxes for SmD orders than for Volks orders. Now I understand. Thanks for that info.