[NSFW] Lardroom's room of lard and dolls.

37 minutes ago, foo said:

I'm still using my CS6 Suite. It's at the limit of usefulness/compatibility now, but it was totally worth the money.

I don't doubt that at all.

 

39 minutes ago, foo said:

As a software developer I'm keenly aware of how hard it is for a software company to stay afloat on product-based revenue, but I'm not remotely a fan of subscription software.

Pretty sure that's the future though.

2 hours ago, foo said:

I'm so far behind! ｏ( ＞ ＜)o

Haha. I'm glad you're here now.

I'm fully willing to believe the problems I'm having are with me and not the camera; however, things are behaving in such a way I feel like there is a camera issue. Maybe you can help me figure out if that is or isn't the case. It's also possible I have expectations that don't match reality.

2 hours ago, foo said:

Whether you use auto focus or manual focus there's an electronic rangefinder in the viewfinder saying it's in focus or not. It works really well!

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/d850/en/08_focus_02.html

In the lower left corner it either shows >, •, or < for the selected focus point. If it's showing > you're focused too close, • you're in focus, and < is focused too far. This will work even if the autofocus is unable to match focus under the focus point. 

Thanks. I'm having an issue where the camera decides it's in focus, when it actually isn't. I assume that indicator will have the same thing if I'm in manual mode; though it's possible it's instead an issue with the control of the lens motor or just something I am not understanding.

2 hours ago, foo said:

Set up AF-fine tune in your camera's settings for your prime lenses. [...]

Don't bother doing this with zoom lenses, they change too much depending on both zoom & focus.

I do need to do this. However, doesn't it primarily correct for if a lens is always focused off in the same direction i.e. always front-focusing or rear-focusing, not to correct what looks like a tolerance issue where it is inconsistent?

I don't own any zooms so I don't have to worry about that lol.

I'll stick an example in spoiler tags as to not clutter this thread up too much.

Spoiler

The setup used was the camera on a tripod, pictures taken with self-timer to eliminate camera shake. Lighting was low because the overhead room light caused glare, and light from the smallish window was the main source but it was overcast. I wasn't trying for aesthetically good photography here. The camera was using the focus assist lamp AFAIK. Autofocus set to single point, and point placed over the barcode label or as close as I could get it. Two pictures taken in sequence so a few seconds apart, and one is in focus and one isn't. I took pictures in pairs of various things I was planning to sell and focused on the barcodes or clothing labels on all, and something like 2/3 of them have a pair like this where focus is off in one. Maybe the lighting was too low? It was apparently fluctuating given how different the two exposures are. Another possible issue I thought of is the distance is close to the limit for how close the lens focuses so maybe it's less accurate there? I never remember which focusing points on the camera are the better cross type and I used whatever was in the right place, so maybe that's an issue too. Maybe I expect more than what is realistic. These are at 100% crops (aside from anything this forum does to them) with no processing, and JPEGs from the camera, and the text is the data from the EXIF files that I added in Photoshop. The EXIF reporting a focusing difference of 4cm is what's most troubling to me. The shutter speed does indicate much less light for the one that is off; I did not check to see if that is consistent in other pictures I took with the problem. This is a D800E with the Nikon 50mm 1.8 lens, in regular viewfinder mode, not live view. I know live view focusing is poor here and I did try that but couldn't get it to work at all, probably user error on that.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by cfx

5 minutes ago, cfx said:

Thanks. I'm having an issue where the camera decides it's in focus, when it actually isn't. I assume that indicator will have the same thing if I'm in manual mode; though it's possible it's instead an issue with the control of the lens motor or just something I am not understanding.

Oh right! When I originally replied I started off writing "two things:" but by the time I was done writing that I forgot what the other thing was.

Basically, turn off auto focus, since there's no point trying to refocus if the camera & subject aren't moving. The simple thing is just to flip the mechanical switch by the lens to disable autofocus, but I set up a custom setting slot just for tripod use. The D810 menus & controls are a bit different, but when you go to the custom setting menus, you can save the settings into one of four banks. I made two that I frequently switch between, one for 'normal' use and one for tripod use.

The one in bank A (normal use) has focus-release priority, meaning that it won't let the shutter take a photo unless it's in focus. The other one for tripod use has shutter-release priority so it takes the photo even if it thinks it might be out of focus, AND I also disabled focusing when you press the shutter button. In order to focus you have to use the AF-ON button on the back of the camera. So if I'm using a tripod, I focus once with the AF-ON button, and then just press the shutter whenever I take the next shot without worrying about focus changing. More importantly, I can manually focus on something and not worry about focus ever changing if I take multiple shots, or the camera locking the shutter because it thinks it's out of focus.

Bank B is also set up so that the AE-L/AF-L button beside the AF-ON button acts only to lock exposure settings (shutter speed & aperture). It's set so that I press it to lock the settings, and later I can press again to unlock it (I don't have to hold it down to keep it locked). When it's locked, the shutter button ONLY causes the shutter to fire. Focus and metering are unaffected.

Actually listing the menu items to set will probably help. The D810 probably has different IDs for the settings but they're close enough:

a2 AF-S priority selection: Release (not focus)

a4 AF activation: AF-ON only

f2: Multi-selector center button: Shooting mode: Highlight active focus point (don't reset), Live View: Zoom on/off, Playback: Zoom on/off.

f6 Assign AE-L/AF-L button: Press > AE lock (Hold)

I think that's the most important stuff I set there.

38 minutes ago, cfx said:

I do need to do this. However, doesn't it primarily correct for if a lens is always focused off in the same direction i.e. always front-focusing or rear-focusing, not to correct what looks like a tolerance issue where it is inconsistent?

I think the inconsistency you're seeing is just that it's engaging focus every time, and sometimes deciding to focus on something else. From the EXIF labels you added it is re-metering the scene (1.3 sec exposure vs. 0.8 sec), so it really re-evaluated everything, including focus. I think if it needed to change the exposure that much maybe it changed the focus point too? That's one reason why I did that f2 Multi-selector center button thing so it doesn't reset the focus point.

5 hours ago, cfx said:

It's also possible I have expectations that don't match reality.

It's been a long time since I messed with the autofocus settings, but I do seem to recall that there are two autofocus modes, and one of them is a good deal fussier than the other. I just can't recall if it only applied to video.

Edit: replied before reading foo's response. It's basically exactly what he is talking about.

Edit2: Actually there is a second setting I am thinking of: Focus tracking with lock on. That one I am pretty sure is meant for video, but it's really fussy.

Edit3: Sorry, one other thing to try. Turn off 3D focus and see if that helps.

Edited April 12, 2020 by BeyondTime

Thanks for all that info, @foo

These discussions are so great.

I was in the middle of moving to a new job and a new city, but since I was shipping a bunch of things and spending money I thought I should also upgrade a bit. Got my first non-kit lens, a Nikon 35mm f/1.8, a fancy tripod that I think is too heavy, and a cheap ebay soft light kit that arrived today.  Also, I purchased Luminar for post processing, and I'm slowly poking at it (previously I was using RawTherapee). I like the Luminar presets, and I need to learn how to use the various masks in the program.

I can't wait to play with the various backgrounds, the multiple soft boxes/umbrellas, the reflectors, and Luminar. I'll need to iron the background sheets. It actually looks much better when the light is feathered and not directly on her like in these pictures. I'm learning how to use these soft lights and the various lighting setups.

No poses, just grabbed Toobs from her moving box and placed her in her favourite dress.

Toobs149 by Lardroom, on Flickr

 

Toobs155 by Lardroom, on Flickr

 

Bonus NSFW

 

 

Toobs144-1 by Lardroom, on Flickr

 

Thanks for all the help and inspiration. I'm still using constantly on lights and eventually I'll transition onto using off-camera flashes.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by lardroom

^Lighting looks good in those. I keep forgetting to ask, where are those shoes from?

That 35mm 1.8 lens for DX is a really good one, especially for the price. It sucks that it's really the only DX-specific prime lens Nikon has, other than maybe the 45mm macro. And with the DX crop factor it's roughly equivalent to 50mm on full frame, which for dolls is decent length for a portrait lens.

@foo Thanks for all the tips. Since I took those pictures I have already been reading about "back button focus" which is what some call the setting to make the AF-ON do it instead of the shutter button.

1 hour ago, foo said:

I think the inconsistency you're seeing is just that it's engaging focus every time, and sometimes deciding to focus on something else. From the EXIF labels you added it is re-metering the scene (1.3 sec exposure vs. 0.8 sec), so it really re-evaluated everything, including focus. I think if it needed to change the exposure that much maybe it changed the focus point too? That's one reason why I did that f2 Multi-selector center button thing so it doesn't reset the focus point.

I will have to double check this, but I believe (hope) I was in AF-S mode, which if I understand it right uses a single focus point that I select, and doesn't try to change it or do any subject tracking. So it should have found the same focus in multiple shots, within whatever tolerances. As it is, if it's doing something wrong, I'd just end up with multiple shots either in or out of focus by chaning it to not refocus each time. I have the indicator for the focus point turned on, and I didn't see it changing. But I am questioning things enough now that I want to make completely sure I had everything set the way I thought I did.

But maybe there's more to it. The re-metering with different results, yet both exposures looking approximately the same, was presumably due to the lighting changing as clouds came and went that day, or maybe something as simple as me standing between the window and camera position in one shot and not the other. I always pressed the shutter and stepped away from the tripod to not cause anything to shake with the longer exposures, but I didn't always move to the same place.

So related, a point I failed to mention is the camera was having some trouble focusing. I was using release priority so I couldn't press the shutter fully unless it thought it was in focus, and sometimes I would have to try multiple times to get it to achieve focus (or for it to think it did anyway). Maybe that is just an indication light was low enough that the focus system was behaving in an unreliable manner, rather than that it has a problem? I was interpreting those results as a camera problem, but maybe not. I had a similar issue with some photos I took for someone else a few weeks ago, and in much more light, but those were also subjects where I needed to focus on very narrow objects against a distant background, which is a difficult case because I'm aware of the fact the focus points tend to not exactly match where the camera shows them to be.

I guess what I need to do is go through the other pictures I took, and look at the EXIF data on all the ones that aren't in focus. If they're all ones that show an exposure that's lower light than the other pictures of the same subject that are in focus, then that would maybe prove it is a lighting problem. Related question: Does that focus assist lamp not really do anything useful? Also, is there something that will show me EXIF in a way that isn't such a pain for groups of photos. I am using a command line EXIF viewer which is functional but a pain to use for this kind of thing.

@lardroom I hope we aren't hijacking your thread with my photography/camera issues. The cameras we are discussing have settings yours does not, but some of this is still applicable to yours as well so maybe it's useful in some way. I probably should've started my own thread with questions...

24 minutes ago, cfx said:

I keep forgetting to ask, where are those shoes from?

From MoriTime on Etsy, those ones are the silk heels v3: https://www.etsy.com/shop/MoriTime?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=611470878
 

I'm pleased with the fit on a DD foot. I'll need to put in the ribbon since it seems more elegant. I'm planning on getting some more heel from this shop in different styles and colors.

24 minutes ago, cfx said:

@lardroom I hope we aren't hijacking your thread with my photography/camera issues. The cameras we are discussing have settings yours does not, but some of this is still applicable to yours as well so maybe it's useful in some way. I probably should've started my own thread with questions...

Actually this D3500 has a lot of features and the focusing mode is actually pertinent. I only shoot in AF-S and but switch to manual when the AF can't focus and won't let me take a shot in low-light settings. I wish I had more focusing points, but I'll have to go mirrorless for that. This seemingly entry-level camera has a lot of features that are actually being discussed, such as the AF and AE locks.

And now that I have an actual tripod, this is even more pertinent for the focusing settings. I might actually try those features on this camera now.

Edited April 12, 2020 by lardroom

3 minutes ago, cfx said:

I was in AF-S mode, which if I understand it right uses a single focus point that I select, and doesn't try to change it or do any subject tracking. So it should have found the same focus in multiple shots, within whatever tolerances.

The shots were at 400 ISO with 0.8s - 1.3s shutter, so that's very low light. If you were at 100 ISO and 1/50 shutter speed and pointing at something with high enough contrast, that's the kind of conditions I'd think the camera would say "yup, I'm definitely still in focus, I'm not going to try adjusting." The thing is if the camera thinks it might not be in focus, it must move the lens to refocus, and if the light changed that much (0.8s to 1.3s) it could easily decide that something else is what needed to be in focus. 

Keep in mind that the focus plane is infinitely thin; depth of field is just about how quickly things get out of focus from the focus plane. So the camera ends up picking one infinitely thin spot over another and the focus looks different 😕 Often I'll find that the camera decided to make the mouth slightly sharper than the eyes because they were under the same focus point, and have to manually change that f^_^')

24 minutes ago, cfx said:

Does that focus assist lamp not really do anything useful?

It's definitely useful, but it has limited reach and it's better on subjects that can be broadly lit, like a large human.

24 minutes ago, cfx said:

Also, is there something that will show me EXIF in a way that isn't such a pain for groups of photos. I am using a command line EXIF viewer which is functional but a pain to use for this kind of thing.

I'm using a Mac and still clinging onto Apple's discontinued Aperture which can show me a spreadsheet-like table view of photo metadata (ｰｰ')

4 minutes ago, lardroom said:

Actually this D3500 has a lot of features and the focusing mode is actually pertinent. I only shoot in AF-S and but switch to manual when the AF can't focus and won't let me take a shot in low-light settings. I wish I had more focusing points, but I'll have to go mirrorless for that.

Actually you should try using Live View with your camera 🤔 Honestly it's probably better than the live view on our ancient D800s. In Live View you can select anything as the focus point like a mirrorless camera. When I'm on the tripod I basically stick to Live View all the time.

If I have trouble focusing I actually take a little flashlight or use my phone to light up the scene, and get it to focus on that. I end up doing that a lot when doing flash photography at night, it gets really dark in my apartment (ｰｰ') 

5 minutes ago, foo said:

Actually you should try using Live View with your camera 🤔 Honestly it's probably better than the live view on our ancient D800s. In Live View you can select anything as the focus point like a mirrorless camera. When I'm on the tripod I basically stick to Live View all the time.

It was infinitely more convenient using Live View with the tripod.

Does the focusing point even matter if you're in manual focus mode? My understanding is that AFs are better than manuals, I just need to lock the focus once it's set when I'm on a tripod and dealing with static dolls.

25 minutes ago, lardroom said:

Actually this D3500 has a lot of features and the focusing mode is actually pertinent. I only shoot in AF-S and but switch to manual when the AF can't focus and won't let me take a shot in low-light settings. I wish I had more focusing points, but I'll have to go mirrorless for that. This seemingly entry-level camera has a lot of features that are actually being discussed, such as the AF and AE locks.

Right. Just keep in mind that Nikon, for whatever reason made the controls and menu systems very different between the "consumer" and "professional" cameras, so some things being mentioned, like @foo's mention of custom banks don't exist in your camera, and the way a lot of the menu setting are is different as well. Some is understandable because less buttons so more things buried in menus, but I suspect that "whatever reason" is also so pros wouldn't buy inexpensive cameras to use as backups, which they might do if the controls were actually the same so they wouldn't be confusing when swithing from one to the other.

And I forgot this, but as foo said, try live view because it may not suck on your camera like it does on mine.

7 minutes ago, foo said:

The shots were at 400 ISO with 0.8s - 1.3s shutter, so that's very low light. If you were at 100 ISO and 1/50 shutter speed and pointing at something with high enough contrast, that's the kind of conditions I'd think the camera would say "yup, I'm definitely still in focus, I'm not going to try adjusting." The thing is if the camera thinks it might not be in focus, it must move the lens to refocus, and if the light changed that much (0.8s to 1.3s) it could easily decide that something else is what needed to be in focus.

I think I'm hung up on one particular bit of data--that EXIF data showing the lens focused at 4cm difference in the two shots. Nothing is that far apart to even focus on, so one is clearly wrong. I can understand if the light was just too low for it to actually accurately focus. Maybe it's also that particular piece of information, as reported and recorded in the EXIF, isn't particularly accurate so I shouldn't put that much stock in it?

9 minutes ago, foo said:

Keep in mind that the focus plane is infinitely thin; depth of field is just about how quickly things get out of focus from the focus plane. So the camera ends up picking one infinitely thin spot over another and the focus looks different 😕 Often I'll find that the camera decided to make the mouth slightly sharper than the eyes because they were under the same focus point, and have to manually change that f^_^')

Ok, that last sentence is something I wasn't getting. So the focus point might cover an area that's large enough and it ends up actually focusing on something else within that area. In my picture sample, it could be the eyes in the bag, which are likely closer to the camera than that barcode is. Or even the barcode itself is probably not in a flat plane to the camera sensor. That doesn't account for 4cm, but if those numbers aren't that absolute as I was asking above, maybe so.

I think I need to do some more tests in better lighting.

13 minutes ago, foo said:

If I have trouble focusing I actually take a little flashlight or use my phone to light up the scene, and get it to focus on that. I end up doing that a lot when doing flash photography at night, it gets really dark in my apartment (ｰｰ') 

Ok, @BeyondTime said he does this same thing. I think what all this is telling me is that autofocus isn't as functional in low lighting as I believed it was.

I've had the camera for 6 years, and taken less than 1000 pictures so I really have almost no experience with it. When I was a teenager I had a Nikkormat 35mm film camera, and DSLRs kind of overwhelm me in comparison.

18 minutes ago, foo said:

Actually you should try using Live View with your camera 🤔 Honestly it's probably better than the live view on our ancient D800s. In Live View you can select anything as the focus point like a mirrorless camera. When I'm on the tripod I basically stick to Live View all the time.

While I don't particularly want to spend money on another camera, I also wonder if I'd be happier with a newer one because of this. Doll photography is really all I'm going to be doing, so it will likely always be on a tripod. As I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread, while I like the viewfinder, I also have trouble seeing the edges due to glasses. I know I do not want a mirrorless though as I like the optical viewfinder and do not like EVFs at least that I've seen.

1 hour ago, lardroom said:

Does the focusing point even matter if you're in manual focus mode?

That depends. If you are able to focus manually by just looking to see that it looks in focus (I'm unable to do this due to old age, poor vision, and post-cataract surgery), then it does not. If you are using the electronic focus confirmation thing >o< or whatever it looks like on your camera, then that uses the autofocus point to confirm focus for you.

Forget that, @foo's response is right.

1 hour ago, lardroom said:

From MoriTime on Etsy, those ones are the silk heels v3: https://www.etsy.com/shop/MoriTime?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=611470878
 

I'm pleased with the fit on a DD foot. I'll need to put in the ribbon since it seems more elegant. I'm planning on getting some more heel from this shop in different styles and colors.

Thanks. I think I've looked there before, but as they don't show shoes on DD I'm always afraid to buy after buying some random shoes that didn't really fit well.

That said, I'll point out the "daily heels" pumps they have look like a variation of a red pair I own that don't fit on DD feet well. Mine came from a Taobao shop but it seems like a lot of these shoes or slight variants are sold by different shops. I posted a picture of mine here, somewhere but I don't remember in what thread.

Edited April 12, 2020 by cfx

23 minutes ago, lardroom said:

Does the focusing point even matter if you're in manual focus mode?

Yes actually, it's still used for metering (shutter speed & aperture).

18 minutes ago, cfx said:

Maybe it's also that particular piece of information, as reported and recorded in the EXIF, isn't particularly accurate so I shouldn't put that much stock in it?

I was wondering what piece of EXIF data you're looking at so I ran ExifTool and found focus distance in the Maker Notes (Nikon) section. That's probably not a useful number. The AF-D lenses (and G that followed) communicate distance information to the camera as a 4-bit number or something; it was designed for the 3D Matrix Metering of the latest film cameras in 1992. My guess is it's using that as focus distance, and it's more like a 'subject range category' rather than a measurement.

26 minutes ago, cfx said:

While I don't particularly want to spend money on another camera, I also wonder if I'd be happier with a newer one because of this.

For tripod work it's really hard to beat any D800 series for usability and capability; you'd be spending a lot of money for an incremental difference. I also bought a Nikon Z 6 last year (the latest pic of Yaya in Photo Randoms was taken with that), which let's me use Nikon's latest. It's certainly faster and more convenient to do stuff with the Z 6 in Live View, plus being able to shoot and a couple photos and send them directly to my Mac over Wi-Fi without having to shuttle the memory card can be helpful when I want to test stuff. But once it's mounted on the tripod the D810 is a king.

The D850 definitely does have improvements that would make it nicer to use, but fortunately the Z 6 those features ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ The Wi-Fi is pretty handy, being able to send photos directly to a PC or phone. You do have to wait, but as long as you're not doing an entire memory card and just sending photos as you take them it can be really convenient. The other thing is the built-in focus stepping for doing focus-stacked photos (that's why I used the Z 6 for this one, trying to crawl into position and manually adjust focus and use the shutter wasn't going to happen).

I did a couple quick searches for D810 vs. D800 live view and there are some good improvements but I don't think it's a dealbreaker. I think you just have to get used to it, and note that I set the custom function so that pushing the center button makes it zoom on the focus point. This makes Live View a LOT easier to use, since you can just press the button to see detail and fix focus or whatever. Focus is also much better in live view since you can focus anywhere, it's just a lot slower than the viewfinder stuff.

18 minutes ago, foo said:

I was wondering what piece of EXIF data you're looking at so I ran ExifTool and found focus distance in the Maker Notes (Nikon) section. That's probably not a useful number. The AF-D lenses (and G that followed) communicate distance information to the camera as a 4-bit number or something; it was designed for the 3D Matrix Metering of the latest film cameras in 1992. My guess is it's using that as focus distance, and it's more like a 'subject range category' rather than a measurement.

I'm using ExifTool as well, but checking now, it's a rather old version; 9.63 and it's at 11.93 now lol. Right before "Focus Distance" I also show an entry aclled "Focus Position" that is 0x11 in both cases, maybe that's the 4-digit thing. Obviously I don't know what it all means. I failed to mention, my lenses are G versions.

20 minutes ago, foo said:

I did a couple quick searches for D810 vs. D800 live view and there are some good improvements but I don't think it's a dealbreaker. I think you just have to get used to it, and note that I set the custom function so that pushing the center button makes it zoom on the focus point. This makes Live View a LOT easier to use, since you can just press the button to see detail and fix focus or whatever. Focus is also much better in live view since you can focus anywhere, it's just a lot slower than the viewfinder stuff.

One other thing. While it's also likely I was having issues with things not set right, but I was finding it didn't seem to be even trying to focus in live view. Is that due to my low light situation I was trying to do this in?

If I were to switch, I'm also wondering if the D780 or D500 might be better for me than the D850. I'll never print anything; I don't even own a color printer. Even the 36mp of the D800E seems more like a liability than a good thing for my use; makes large files that just slow down processing on my not-state-of-the-art PC, and I always end up reducing the size anyway. As I understand it, the D780 has essentially the live view system of the Z6, but the downside for me would be the "consumer" menu system. The D500 would be stepping down to a crop sensor, but keeping the body type and menu system I want. I'm used to full frame because I was used to 35mm, and I'm used to how lenses work there, and there's a lack of wide-angle options, but it might work. I'd consider the Z6 but as mentioned I'd rather have an optical viewfinder, and I don't want to replace lenses, and while I know the FTZ works fine, it also feels a bit like a kludge especially in how the base of it extends beyond the bottom of the camera, and you need to put the tripod foot on the adapter instead of the camera. And I do like a larger camera body; I always have the grip on the D800 which also lets me use AA eneloops in it--though Live View seems to drain those in no time.

I used to own a D700 which I had to sell due to financial difficulties and so later got the D800. I had "D" screw-drive lenses back then too. The 12mp of that never felt like enough, and really I didn't like that camera as it just didn't feel right for me somehow, but the D800 has also always felt like "too much" to me as well, certainly too much in the way of mp and file sizes.

12 hours ago, cfx said:

While it's also likely I was having issues with things not set right, but I was finding it didn't seem to be even trying to focus in live view. Is that due to my low light situation I was trying to do this in?

I think so.

12 hours ago, cfx said:

If I were to switch, I'm also wondering if the D780 or D500 might be better for me than the D850.

I have a D300, and I was waiting in vain for the D400 to come out because the D300 got pretty old. I was happy with DX and didn't feel the need for full frame. Then my brother got a D600 and I was surprised by how juicy those full frame pixels were (plus, the sensor was significantly newer). That definitely enticed me to full frame. Then Nikon announced the D810 and I decided to get it. I think without a set of DX-appropriate lenses you'd be unsatisfied if you moved to the D500. The usual set of lenses I used did shift to accommodate the larger sensor.

I bought the Z 6 because I spent one afternoon walking around a convention with the D810 + kinda heavy zoom lens hanging around my neck all day. The next day, my neck and shoulders hurt, I'm not young anymore 😛 For a DSLR I love the camera and body style but I could use something significantly different for days when I just don't need all of that. The Z 6 was on sale at the time (well discounts for the lens & adapter) so I decided to go for it. I'm very happy with it! And I'm happy to use one or the other as needed. I also got the Z 50's pancake zoom lens which turns the camera into a 10 MP DX camera — this is great because I was still using my 12 MP D300 when I was out & about with the 35 mm prime. What's great is that because it's mirrorless, you don't get the 'crop' effect in the viewfinder when using a DX lens. The fact that it's a full frame sensor using a crop lens and producing smaller files is completely transparent. It just magically gets more convenient with smaller files, smaller lens, and less weight.

If you get a mirrorless camera you'll be using the viewfinder less. The D800 has a brilliantly large, bright viewfinder which is really hard to beat, any other Nikon camera will be a downgrade (D6 excluded). But the Z 6's rear screen shows the exact same thing as the viewfinder, so you can do things like look in the view finder, pull your face back and look at the screen, tap the screen to change the focus point, then go back to the viewfinder. It automatically switches between the two using a proximity sensor.

What's really irritating though is the lack of image review after taking a shot. With a DSLR it's obvious that when you're looking in the view finder, you're in the process of taking a photo, and when you look at the screen you're trying to review the image. Because on mirrorless the two are both 'viewfinders,' it's not as clear for when to show previews. Like if you take a photo with the viewfinder, should it show the preview in the viewfinder? (NO!). If you take a photo without the viewfinder should it show the preview then? Maybe... but if you're taking a lot of photos using the screen it gets annoying because you have to dismiss them. You can configure behaviour of when it should & shouldn't show the image review, but because there isn't a clear distinction like a DSLR it's guaranteed to be unsatisfying whatever you pick.

12 hours ago, cfx said:

I don't want to replace lenses, and while I know the FTZ works fine, it also feels a bit like a kludge especially in how the base of it extends beyond the bottom of the camera, and you need to put the tripod foot on the adapter instead of the camera.

While the thing has a tripod mount, you don't need to use it. You'd probably only use it if you have a really long & heavy lens that changes the balance too much, and doesn't have its own tripod mount. The main thing with the mount is that it acts like a spacer to make up for the lost mirror box of a DSLR. They probably just added the tripod mount hole there because why not. Currently, there aren't that many Z lenses so buying a new set of lenses isn't an issue ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ I'm only using the "kit" 24-70 f/4 and the Z 50 DX lens, otherwise I use the adapter with my FX primes.

(I do feel guilty for filling @lardroom's thread with this stuff...)

5 hours ago, foo said:

(I do feel guilty for filling @lardroom's thread with this stuff...)

True. I'll make the assumption the discussion may be useful if he considers buying another camera. I think the discussion will drop off in a bit. I'll put this in spoiler since it'll probably get long as I want to comment on a few points:

Spoiler

5 hours ago, foo said:

I think without a set of DX-appropriate lenses you'd be unsatisfied if you moved to the D500.

I suspect that along with the small viewfinder image would both irritate me about a DX camera. I've used a D5x00 for a bit, and the small viewfinder irritated me, perhaps in part again because I was used to 35mm film cameras. I was also reading Thom Hogan's D500 review and he specifically mentioned it was hard to see the corners of the viewfinder and the data below the image for glasses wearers. I think I'm floundering around a bit trying to figure out exactly what might work better for me since I'm not quite happy with the D800.

I'd love a D5 (currently cheaper than a D6) because of that body. Long ago I got to handle a D1 for a bit and I really liked that body style over anything else. The D800 + grip just isn't the same. Expense aside, image quality wise I don't know if the D5 is a good choice. 20mp is probably enough for me, but I also understand it's not so great at lower ISOs, though I also have to take the reviews in context. It's not worse than the D3 was, just worse than the D4 and any D8x0.

5 hours ago, foo said:

I bought the Z 6 because I spent one afternoon walking around a convention with the D810 + kinda heavy zoom lens hanging around my neck all day. The next day, my neck and shoulders hurt, I'm not young anymore

I can understand that. I owned a D610 for a while that I bought thinking I'd do stuff and carry it around with me. That never actually happened and I came to realize I just don't really have a use for a camera like that. I don't think I've actually used a camera strap at all since way back when I had the film cameras. So size and weight don't matter much for me, currently anyway.

5 hours ago, foo said:

If you get a mirrorless camera you'll be using the viewfinder less. The D800 has a brilliantly large, bright viewfinder which is really hard to beat, any other Nikon camera will be a downgrade (D6 excluded). But the Z 6's rear screen shows the exact same thing as the viewfinder, so you can do things like look in the view finder, pull your face back and look at the screen, tap the screen to change the focus point, then go back to the viewfinder. It automatically switches between the two using a proximity sensor.

That's one of the things on my mind. I haven't gotten to try a mirrorless because I'm in a small town and don't know other photographers, but I dug up a youtube video that I figured was a pretty accurate representation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2dJYg7-x94

Just watching that, I don't really like the experience; the way it's a bit jerky and laggy etc. OTOH, with tripod work like doll photgraphy just using the rear screen would be easier most of the time anyway, but I feel like I'm giving something up not having the optical viewfinder.

5 hours ago, foo said:

What's really irritating though is the lack of image review after taking a shot. With a DSLR it's obvious that when you're looking in the view finder, you're in the process of taking a photo, and when you look at the screen you're trying to review the image. Because on mirrorless the two are both 'viewfinders,' it's not as clear for when to show previews. Like if you take a photo with the viewfinder, should it show the preview in the viewfinder? (NO!). If you take a photo without the viewfinder should it show the preview then? Maybe... but if you're taking a lot of photos using the screen it gets annoying because you have to dismiss them. You can configure behaviour of when it should & shouldn't show the image review, but because there isn't a clear distinction like a DSLR it's guaranteed to be unsatisfying whatever you pick.

That's likely to annoy me. I generally don't review images except after taking a few, and I remember one of the things that annoyed me when I used that D5x00 camera was I could never figure out how to not have it keep doing image review or even not turn on the screen with the shot data every time I touched the shutter button. This was probably doable and I was stupid for not finding the settings, but it's a reminder of how what you are describing would likely irritate me.

5 hours ago, foo said:

While the thing has a tripod mount, you don't need to use it. You'd probably only use it if you have a really long & heavy lens that changes the balance too much, and doesn't have its own tripod mount. The main thing with the mount is that it acts like a spacer to make up for the lost mirror box of a DSLR. They probably just added the tripod mount hole there because why not.

I see, but I was also thinking there's an issue for me with how that squared-off part of the adapter hangs below the camera base. I have the screw-type quick release clamp on my tripod head, and I orient it with the knob sticking forward so it doesn't jab me in the face. I'm thinking that won't work in this case.

As a kind of summary of the spoiler babble, I think what's really going around in my head is if there is some DSLR I'd be happier with than the D800 because it's getting to where it's sort of my last chance to get that if I don't want to go mirrorless. That choice can be difficult because I don't know that I've really identified what it is about the D800 that makes me unhappy with it. I'm making some assumptions like I know I prefer the pro body, and that since I'm being irritated by the autofocus, that even with the knowledge that a large part of that is with me, the improved autofocus system in the D5/D850 (and D780 and D500) would probably make me a little happier.

I'm old (62), so something I buy now would very likely suffice as what Thom Hogan calls "last camera syndrome" where I wouldn't need to upgrade again. Maybe that even works for the D800, but maybe the D800 is old enough that I'm missing out on something that would make the experience better for me by not upgrading, or that it will start to truly feel "too old" say in another 10 years. I think it's assumed that the D850 will get one replacement (D860 or whatever) but that the D6 will be the last pro DSLR, D780 is probably the last of that line, etc. I have to weigh that against the expense and the knowledge that the D800 isn't worth very much in trade anymore.

37 minutes ago, cfx said:

That's one of the things on my mind. I haven't gotten to try a mirrorless because I'm in a small town and don't know other photographers, but I dug up a youtube video that I figured was a pretty accurate representation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2dJYg7-x94

idunno, watching that video made me feel nauseous. My camera never made me feel that way (･･') 

Yeah doing some test shots right now, the experience isn't like the video. While you can tell that there's a refresh rate, using it feels like a normal camera. With EVFs I've generally been more worried about noise and being unable to shoot properly in the dark, but with this camera's ISO sensitivity that hasn't been an issue.

41 minutes ago, cfx said:

I see, but I was also thinking there's an issue for me with how that squared-off part of the adapter hangs below the camera base. I have the screw-type quick release clamp on my tripod head, and I orient it with the knob sticking forward so it doesn't jab me in the face. I'm thinking that won't work in this case.

I guess you mean like this?

I'm using the RRS Arca-Swiss plate which adds some of its own height.

25 minutes ago, foo said:

idunno, watching that video made me feel nauseous. My camera never made me feel that way (･･') 

Ok, that's a relief. Maybe it's a case of youtube framerate vs. the camera, or however that was captured. That guy usually seems pretty good though so I figured his video was ok. I've seen another one, though showing a Sony camera, that was similar so I thought maybe that was how it is with the mirrorless cameras.

26 minutes ago, foo said:

I'm using the RRS Arca-Swiss plate which adds some of its own height.

Yeah, that's what I meant. That RRS plate looks nice and like they intentionally made it thick for that purpose; I guess that maybe also solves the issue I've read about where your hand may be longer than the camera's grip.

I have the RRS L-bracket for the D800 and it's not that thick.

Z6 or Z7 could possibly work for me then. (I can't remember how they are different other than megapixels.)

Now I want to redo all those old pictures since they look so terrible to me now. Toobie looks amazing in the new set-up and I've got a bunch of new toys to play with. Feathering one soft box while the other is pointing straight up makes for much more interesting light and shadows than just shining the soft box directly at her. I should have gotten a tripod ages ago, but I still enjoy non-tripod shooting as it allows me to get more unexpected facets than a static pose with one angle.

As for camera talk, It's interesting to see what other doll photographers use, or are thinking of using and why. I'm looking around for an eventual upgrade once I outgrow this D3500. I'm not beholden to any particular brand and I'm not tied to any particular lens eco system.

 

Bonus feathering shot:

Toobie20.04.13.019 by Lardroom, on Flickr

I wanted to play more, but my social distancing got interrupted by easter family stuff. Maybe next week.

1 minute ago, lardroom said:

I should have gotten a tripod ages ago, but I still enjoy non-tripod shooting as it allows me to get more unexpected facets than a static pose with one angle.

I think a way to do both is to do the handheld stuff and when you find something you really like, then set up the tripod to take the shot again with that.

Since dolls are really patient and don't get bored with us taking forever to take their pictures, this works. Less so with actual human photography.

49 minutes ago, lardroom said:

Now I want to redo all those old pictures since they look so terrible to me now.

Unfortunately you're going to have to get used to that, it'll keep happening.

On 4/12/2020 at 6:37 PM, cfx said:

I'm making some assumptions like I know I prefer the pro body, and that since I'm being irritated by the autofocus, that even with the knowledge that a large part of that is with me, the improved autofocus system in the D5/D850 (and D780 and D500) would probably make me a little happier.

Have you tried setting the Autofocus activation to use the AF-On button instead of the shutter? That should eliminate refocus when you use the shutter release.

I think I am going to get a D6 later this year.

2 hours ago, BeyondTime said:

Have you tried setting the Autofocus activation to use the AF-On button instead of the shutter? That should eliminate refocus when you use the shutter release.

Not yet, but that won't solve my issue with missed focus; I'll just end up with multiple shots either all in focus or all out of focus instead of one in and one out, etc. My real problem is the inconsistency and inaccuracy of the focus system, or how I'm using it, not that it refocuses, because it really should still get the same result after refocusing as long as I haven't changed what it's supposed to focus on.

2 hours ago, BeyondTime said:

I think I am going to get a D6 later this year.

I can't justify the price for that one. I'm trying to somehow justify the slightly lower price for the D5, which is still a really irresponsible thing for me to do.

In further reading, I've learned the D5 (and I'm sure D6) has more reliable autofocus than the D850, because while it's supposed to be the same system, the more advanced and separate processor devoted to it in the D5 just works better.

17 minutes ago, cfx said:

I can't justify the price for that one. I'm trying to somehow justify the slightly lower price for the D5, which is still a really irresponsible thing for me to do.

It's not like I'm a pro sports photog who will use it as a money maker, so a D6 is just as irresponsible for me.

The D5 is a great camera, and one plus imo is that is uses Compact Flash cards, the D6 switched to a new type of card, very fast, but CF has a long record of reliability that's hard to argue with. I love that my D800 has a CF card slot.

I want something that has faster frame rate than the D800 for wildlife photography. I bought the D800 for landscapes and architecture.

Edited April 26, 2020 by BeyondTime

31 minutes ago, BeyondTime said:

The D5 is a great camera, and one plus imo is that is uses Compact Flash cards, the D6 switched to a new type of card, very fast, but CF has a long record of reliability that's hard to argue with. I love that my D800 has a CF card slot.

You probably know this, but there are two versions of the D5; one uses CF and one uses the newer XQD, and you only get the full use of the frame rate and buffer with the XQD version. A concern I always see stated about CF is the possibility of a bent pin in the socket in the camera. I can see that in theory, but I wonder how it could actually happen in reality...I guess if a card was physically dirty and had something in one of the holes, which with pro use I can see happening.

2 minutes ago, cfx said:

You probably know this, but there are two versions of the D5; one uses CF and one uses the newer XQD, and you only get the full use of the frame rate and buffer with the XQD version.

Nope, last time I looked at it was in 2013.

Did you try disabling 3D focus? I was wondering if that might be part of your issue. It's been awhile since I read about it, but I think it was designed for motion tracking and in low light it might have issues figuring out what to focus on. In 3D focus mode the camera is constantly looking for a new subject to focus on, and the focus indicator tends to bounce from point to point on the screen.

Sorry if you already covered this earlier, I haven't followed every post.

With the photos I took of Iori and Yukiho today, I had no issues with the camera refocusing when I tripped the remote release after I moved the autofocus to the AF-On button. For dolls I really don't need the speed of touching the shutter and tracking, and I also don't need motion tracking style focus.