Frozen

The discussion in the SD Frozen thread started to move onto the topic of the films, and since that is off topic for the SD thread, I am starting a new thread here, and quoting the relevant topics. 
 

On 12/16/2020 at 4:05 AM, marishade said:

Hahaha! I actually do not get the 'hype' around it myself. I associate with Elsa, which is why I like it. . . I also prefer Frozen 2 to the original despite it being messy. Frozen 2 follows a story more like Brave which I am fond of.

 

On 12/16/2020 at 3:49 PM, BeyondTime said:

Frozen 2 was a good film, and in my mind deserves a lot of credit for building out the setting into more than just a stage called Arendelle where Anna and Elsa stand while doing important stuff. I like the first film better for a lot of reasons, but the importance the second film has to the Frozen universe can’t be understated. 

Frozen has the distinction of taking the fairytale princess trope and turning it on its ear.

In Frozen Elsa really redefined what a Disney Princess is and can be, and imo that’s why she is bigger than all the other princesses. Frozen 2 built on that. 
 

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When she rides off to Ahtohallan it really showcases her strength and independence. She’s the queen, but she’s also the heroic knight riding off into danger.  I’m not sure there is a precedent for that in a Disney heroine. 

 

 

14 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

Are we getting into Frozen 2 discourse here? My problem was that I liked a lot of the cut songs and plotlines more than the stuff that actually made it into the final product. Also (without getting into spoilers here) some of the plot points/situations/actions of the characters and the magic beings just didn't make sense or seem logical upon further reflection.

I know it wouldn't have been as big and fancy, but I kinda wish they had done a tv series instead of a sequel movie, like they did with Tangled (and will be doing with Tiana and Moana). Then they would have had more time to explore and expand on the lore and character arcs. I'm hoping they do end up making a series at some point - it's not like the franchise isn't popular enough for it! - because I do really love these characters and want to spend more time with them. 

 

 

Disclaimer: The forum management is not liable for any damages that may result from any unplanned merger of the Frozen and Falloween threads, or any psychological harm that could result from any game or doll related mods that may result from such a merger.

Just now, BeyondTime said:

My problem was that I liked a lot of the cut songs and plotlines more than the stuff that actually made it into the final product

I’m curious what the cuts were, do you have a source?

In the deluxe Frozen 2 soundtrack it has "initial scores" of the cut songs. I am not as interested in them, but they are there. 

I am not as familiar about the plotlines. Maybe the new "Making of Frozen 2" on Disney Plus says something about it but someone else may be able to tell you better.

WELP. HERE WE GO. SPOILER WARNING: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97k3-BEgA5g

- Deleted prologue scene, has a kickass shaman (presumably the old tribe leader) who can shapeshift into a reindeer, would have helped establish why the reindeer were such a prevalent symbol to the Northuldra tribe and maybe given more context to Kristoff and that other guy being able to communicate with reindeer beyond a throwaway gag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH_bJI9Nk5I

- Shows Kristoff having a more complex character arc that I would have liked them to explore, about him being uncomfortable with palace life and marrying into royalty and the expectations places on him to be a "prince" after living in troll huts and stables for so long. Instead of just "Kristoff is kinda uncertain and Anna is completely clueless that there's anything troubling him and is too busy with her sister/her own character arc to affect his subplot in any way".

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QycoP_nruY

- This is just really sweet, enforces Anna as a strong character on her own, and helps establish that the King and Queen really were good parents - because there are still some fans who think they were Bad Parents for shutting Elsa and Anna away instead of decent people placed in a terrible situation they didn't know how to handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AxYnIdROiQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmkY_Tc3CIQ

- These two are just more cool magic lore stuff that would have been nice to see, also establishes that Arendelle knows about the Northuldra.

And as for the songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So7cD9BRmFw

Get This Right - I understand why they would end up putting the proposal in the climax of the movie instead of at the start, but Anna and Kristoff deserved their own duet dang it! And I will forever be salty that Disney deprived us of the lines "I wanna be the man of your dreams!" "Guess what, you already are!" BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY FREAKIN CUTE DANG IT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xuUfWe57Jk

Home - This helps establish why Anna becoming Queen at the end of the movie makes sense for her character arc, as it's all about how she loves Arendelle and the people in it; it would have also made the "Arendelle will be destroyed if we don't do something" plot point feel more dire.

(I would have much rather had these two songs than "Some Things Never Change" and Olaf's song.)

 

Obviously, there is stuff I'm glad they cut in the end (Elsa dying with only a hint that she might come back), and there is stuff I did like about the final movie (Kristoff + reindeer 80's rock ballad), but overall I think there was a lot of cool lore ideas and character moments cut that would have made the final product much more compelling (to people like me that are big on lore and character stuff), and I wish they would go back and explore some of those ideas in some kind of show/miniseries format because they deserve expanding on.

 

...(also, making this a "Disney movies/media in general thread" would be cool too, because then we could talk about the Tangled show and the future Moana/Tiana shows and the upcoming Last Dragon movie...I really do love Disney movies, I just had a lot of really high expectations for Frozen 2 after having tumblr discourse about the original movie for years and I was a bit let down by parts of it.)

 

In the end the most unfortunate thing about Frozen 2 was just how time-crunched the team was, forcing them to make cuts they may have otherwise not, or reworked back into the film in a better way, but there was just no time for them to do it.  Also, like always with Disney films, their target audience was children, and a lot of things confused their test audiences, so they rightfully scrapped them.

I think Frozen 2 is a beautiful film for both children and adults, touching on mental illness, loss, growing up, and finding yourself in a gentle but meaningful way with lightheartedness (like 'When I Am Older;' Olaf is singing about how life will be great when he's 'grown up,' a common thought in adolescence, but obviously the point is that it won't, and that's okay!).  I have a lot of problems with Disney as a whole, but Frozen 2 really improved on a series that I originally heavily disliked.  That's not to say I don't think they could have done more with Frozen 2, but they did a fantastic job with the limitations they had.

Edited December 18, 2020 by OccultBeast
spelling

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

Shows Kristoff having a more complex character arc that I would have liked them to explore, about him being uncomfortable with palace life and marrying into royalty and the expectations places on him to be a "prince" after living in troll huts and stables for so long.

Kristoff and Sven’s origins are a story that still needs to be told, but that kind of deserves its own film imo. Telling Olaf’s origin story in a short makes sense, but not Kristoff.

Kristoff has it hard too; his soon to be sister in law can stop a tsunami with a thought, so talk about being overshadowed. XD

 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

because there are still some fans who think they were Bad Parents for shutting Elsa and Anna away instead of decent people placed in a terrible situation they didn't know how to handle.

In some ways Elsa is a metaphor for parenting mistakes. A few lines in Let it Go come to mind: 

“Conceal, don’t feel, don’t let them know” - Something boys are taught about showing emotion, and as men it sends them to early graves. In Elsa’s case this bit of wisdom prevents her from learning to control her power, and almost gets both girls killed by Hans.

”Be the good girl you always have to be” - Something girls are taught about always being perfect and on their best behavior. An impossible standard that can hold them back as adults in both personal life and at the workplace, and lead to lack of self confidence.

I see her parents as well meaning people who want to protect their kids from something they aren’t equipped to understand, and their good intentions have bad results. 
 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QycoP_nruY

That clip was also an interesting setup for a sequel, and that might be why they dropped it. Oddly enough it might also explain why Anna’s coronation was in a tent. That bit struck me as weird since Elsa’s was in a chapel. It’s possible that when they made that part the castle was intended to be destroyed.

What I don’t like about it is that the bit with her parents feels too much like a retcon. That was the one thing I didn’t like about the Olaf holiday special. The bit about Olaf keeping them together when they were apart was cute, but completely contradicted a central element of the first film. 

To be very fair, I’m looking at this with adult eyes when it was really made for kids. 

 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

These two are just more cool magic lore stuff that would have been nice to see, also establishes that Arendelle knows about the Northuldra.

The first one was interesting, but probably more of a story for older kids or adults. I can see how younger kids might not have followed it.
 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So7cD9BRmFw

Olaf’s line at the end about Hans cracked me up. 

Hans certainly got what he deserved in Frozen Fever.  
 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

Anna and Kristoff deserved their own duet dang it!

They got one in Frozen, but the proposal should have been a duet. I’m not sure about Anna proposing though. It would fit the way Frozen turns the Princess trope on its ear, but I think Frozen II is so focused on Anna and Elsa that Kristoff has a hard time maintaining relevance. 
 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

(I would have much rather had these two songs than "Some Things Never Change" and Olaf's song.)

 

Well, I suspect kids wanted an Olaf song, and they probably wanted Olaf to have one like he did in the first film. 

In a way Olaf and Sven probably help younger kids relate to adult characters and themes. 
 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

...(also, making this a "Disney movies/media in general thread" would be cool too, because then we could talk about the Tangled show and the future Moana/Tiana shows and the upcoming Last Dragon movie...

I’d have to think about that a bit. I’m a bit worried it might be too much like the doll threads on DOA. Having all Large Volks dolls in one single thread results in a lot of posts getting overlooked in the flood of posts gushing over a boy doll photo someone posted. 

There is nothing that says there can’t be other off topic threads on other Disney films. With Volks and CJ partnering with Disney on character dolls, Disney is very relevant to doll forums. 
 

8 hours ago, OccultBeast said:

mental illness

I think his part must have gone over my head. Is it a reference to Anna & Elsa’s grandfather?

1 hour ago, BeyondTime said:

I think his part must have gone over my head. Is it a reference to Anna & Elsa’s grandfather?

Elsa herself is basically an entire metaphor to living with a mental illness, though I understand why it may go unnoticed by those who don't have a MI or are close to someone who does.  She has a 'power' that no one else has, which she struggles to control initially, and can (and does) hurt those around her because of it, even the people she loves the most, without her meaning to.  She has a lot of self-loathing and self-fear, which a lot of people with MI also struggle with.  The people around her don't understand her 'power,' and a lot of this also comes from Elsa shutting herself away from her friends/family, 'conceal don't feel / don't let them know', which is also common for those with MI, and only fuels the lack of understanding from both sides.  Elsa overall has a lot of emotional turmoil and growth through both movies, but in Frozen 2 she learned to fully accept herself and the 'power' she has, just like learning to live with a MI.

Author's note: my partner has lived with a MI for their entire life and raved to me from the start about how the original Frozen was such a great way to explain a story about MI without it being a MI specifically.  I can definitely see the correlation, and it's a great way to sort of explain those themes to children especially.

8 hours ago, OccultBeast said:

Elsa herself is basically an entire metaphor to living with a mental illness

Well, just to be clear I’ve had severe insomnia since I was 8, insomnia like mine leads to other ailments like chronic depressions. I have a number of family members who grapple with mental illness, including one who is a diagnosed paranoid psychotic. 

I never thought of Elsa that way, but based on your explanation I can see how Elsa can be seen as personifying that. 

That said, I tend to think this is a case of good art allowing people to see something of themselves reflected within in the art. 

In theater, good theater, all characters have pretext and subtext. The pretext is basically a lie that they tell to themselves and to the audience, and the subtext is the real self-truth that lies beyond that lie. The goal is to tell the audience one thing, but then gradually reveal the truth in a way that lets the audience guess where the story is really going to end up, but not so much that they aren’t guessing until the very end. Hans is the most egregious example of this:

I love Anna - pretext 

I want to murder Anna and Elsa so I can haz power - subtext. 

Hans story of being the youngest of 13 sons is a hint to the viewer that Hans potentially has motivations other than love.

In Elsa’s case the pretext is wanting to live free in her “Kingdom of Isolation”, but the way she sings that line with sadness hints at the subtext: I want to reconnect with my sister and no longer be alone. 

That pretext / subtext device is what draws the audience into the story and in essence makes them a living part of the storytelling experience. When they figure it out before the big reveal they feel personal triumph. Of course, every member of the audience is living the story through their own perspective and with their own personal biases. 

Good art encourages this, and bad art lacking this falls flat; the audience walks out before the end.

In my mind Frozen is good art, and it uses these devices to good effect and pulls us into the world and into the lives of its characters.

To give you my own perception of Elsa’s life and explain why I identify with her as much as I do. As a kid with insomnia I would be awake at 3 am when everyone else was asleep. I had a neighbor who was often up very late too, and I would look out the window to see if their light was on, just because it made me feel like I wasn’t the only person left in the world. When that light finally went out I would feel totally isolated, like I was the only person left alive. So Elsa’s isolation as a child is something I can strongly relate too. Her sitting by the window looking out, but then being frightened by her own power as it creeps out, calls out to my own childhood experiences. 

In addition, when you have a problem like that as a kid you know something is wrong inside, but as a child you aren’t really equipped to deal with it, so often you just reject that part of yourself. When I first saw Elsa sing the lines “Let it go, let it go” with genuine happiness as those flurries rise up from her hands, I was soaring upward along with her voice, because she was finally embracing a part of herself she had learned to fear.

Granted, she was doing the wrong thing by building a giant ice palace and shutting herself away, but embracing that part of herself, loving this thing that makes her so different, was the first step towards mastering it. She still needed to discover that love thaws a frozen heart, a lesson she could only learn through her sister’s act of self sacrifice, before she could really gain control.   

So yeah, I can get the metal illness aspect, but I never thought of it that way until now. I would still argue that lines like “conceal don’t feel” and “be the good girl you always have to be” are meant to be relatable to children on a more basic level. That doesn’t mean that they can’t mean more to adults. The story was written by people with adult experiences to draw on as they created, so even basic symbolism in a kids film can have a lot of adult context embedded within it. 

9 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

WELP. HERE WE GO. SPOILER WARNING: 

 

releasing all this cut material was the BIGGEST MISTAKE Disney could have possibly done!!

Lemme explain - they basically show you all this fantastic writing that could have been in the movie itself, instead of being tossed out for inferior things that did make it in
Like how the locals have an omen about an ice queen appearing, how Anna is a "spare" child in case the older princess doesnt work out, how the townfolk are terrified of Elsa because of the aforementioned ill omen  etc etc... sure, the lyricists are absolutely banking on Idina's vocal talents and cribbing a bit from WICKED... but ya know what, thats fair

Olaf's summer song time could have been used to have more sister story development!! ( I am a glutton for Elsa/Anna moments, just... hook it straight into my veins)
and sure sure sure, if everyone wanted Olaf's lil song time that badly, it could have just been released as a Bonus Short Animation instead

and dun nobody explain the trolls. We could have had more of that lovely lore, instead of those terrible things singing to Kris about literal lack of consent (lets review the lyrics shall we? So she's a bit of a fixer upper / That's a minor thing
This quote engagement is a flex arrangement / And by the way I don't see no ring
Her brain's a bit betwixt / Get the fiance out of the way / And the whole thing will be fixed
Wow movie, did you just tell this guy to literally ignore the woman saying "no thanx" and keep pushing anyway??

 

anyyyyhow, I can absolutely see how Elsa's behavior can be read as mental illness, but I personally saw "conceal don’t feel" in the script as about complete and utter failure of parenting. Don't show any affection to your kids, ignore one & put too much pressure on the other to be perfection, forbid them to express themselves in healthy ways, and they too can become a living icicle! (going back on the OG Ice Queen fairy tale here)
Anna's entire excitement over upcoming coronation song is a tragedy. An unsupervised young lady doing dangerous things, plus clearly she has had zero socializing with others her age or even like... have not even the palace maids made friends with this poor kid and brought their own daughters to play time??? I have so many questions!)

Edited December 19, 2020 by Chise

21 minutes ago, Chise said:

but I personally saw "conceal don’t feel" in the script as about complete and utter failure of parenting

It doesn’t help that Elsa looks a bit like her dad when she says it, almost like you were hearing him say the words from beyond the grave. And the pain she was experiencing as she relived that was clear. 
 

In case anyone wasn’t aware, prior to this scene being created Elsa was intended to be the true villain of the show, but once they made it they realized she wasn’t a villain and ended up completely rewriting her story arc. In a sense, once Elsa was brought to life, she had a completely different story inside of her than her creators intended. 

21 minutes ago, Chise said:

if everyone wanted Olaf's lil song time that badly, it could have just been released as a Bonus Short Animation instead

I think Olaf’s comedic one liners only really work if he feels like he’s more than just an afterthought. I don’t really disagree with them including those songs, but I wouldn’t have minded of a few more minutes of runtime for some extra character development in Anna & Elsa. 

3 minutes ago, BeyondTime said:

In case anyone wasn’t aware, prior to this scene being created Elsa was intended to be the true villain of the show, but once they made it they realized she wasn’t a villain and ended up completely rewriting her story arc. In a sense, once Elsa was brought to life, she had a completely different story inside of her than her creators intended. 

and thats the other elephant in this room!! Once the big musical number happens, and she creates a literal palace of ice in which to lock herself away from others... The story is ripe for a tragic villainess right there!!!
She can scoff "look, the spare is finally needed! Go fulfill your life's purpose" at Anna, she could start freezing the local crops and eyeroll at the villagers who may come to beg for her mercy (the crops destruction may not have started on purpose at first... but listen... creation of tons of new ice is clearly gonna have effects on the local weather patterns)
They could have made it work, and her sister's pure love for her would have melted the ice in Elsa's heart giving a very satisfying ending
...or again... the tragic villainess met her untimely demise.... but still in face of the passionate fires that was her younger sister's heart (which is where original non-villain Hans very easily slides in)

 

Disney, why oh why did you tell me all these lovely abandoned plot nuggets existed in songs, and you chose to toss 'em out in favor of something cliche with an easily marketable "mascot" character stapled on top

 

2 hours ago, Chise said:

Disney, why oh why did you tell me all these lovely abandoned plot nuggets existed in songs, and you chose to toss 'em out in favor of something cliche with an easily marketable "mascot" character stapled on top

I don’t think the story was cliched. If anything Frozen breaks with the traditional Disney tropes.

Through Hans it completely subverts the fairytale trope of the “true love’s kiss.” Then, just when you think she’s going to be saved by Kristoff’s true love kiss, she turns and commits her own act of true love by saving Elsa. That pretty much tosses the kiss trope completely out the window along with the Princess needed to be rescued by a man trope, and good riddance to the latter. 

But, I will admit, as much as I like Olaf, you’re probably right on the money about him being a marketable mascot character.
 

Still, his commentary often suits my rather warped sense of humor. 

I laughed at stuff in House episodes that I am pretty sure only the really bent folks laughed at. 
 

2 hours ago, Chise said:

The story is ripe for a tragic villainess right there!!!

To be certain, tragic villains are often better than the ones who are just pure evil from the get go. Give us a reason to relate to the villain, and they become all the more real.

Wow, this has totally blown up while I was away! Wasn't expecting to fill a doll forum with so much Frozen discourse lol.😅

I'll have to go through everything and comment properly tomorrow; my brain's still on too much of a Star Wars kick after watching the Mandalorian s2 finale to process anything else atm.

ooh sorry @BeyondTime, I meant Olaf is the cliche!

Can't have a sales-rich movie without
a) a hit song kids will repeat ad nauseum
b) some kinda goofy-lookin 'lovable' mascot character that can be made into plush toys . ALL the plush toys!!!  (ahem ... sorry.... my store had a giant inflatable Olaf set up weeks before Thanksgiving.... i am just sick of looking at that thing in general)

2 hours ago, Chise said:

ooh sorry @BeyondTime, I meant Olaf is the cliche!

XD

Ok, yeah I can see that.
 

2 hours ago, Chise said:

my store had a giant inflatable Olaf set up weeks before Thanksgiving.... i am just sick of looking at that thing in general)

Any normal person would probably feel like .

 

17 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

Wasn't expecting to fill a doll forum with so much Frozen discourse lol.

I blame Disney. 

Oh, Frozen... The series has a special place in my heart, despite the flaws in both movies. Though I have to admit, even though Elsa was my favourite in the first, I am kind of frustrated with her in Frozen 2, and like Anna more 😅 My pet peeve is her singing "Open in your door" to the voice in Atohallan in "Show yourself" after, you know, pushing away her sister who sang it to her for years before, to go attempt to traverse the sea where their parents died, after they saw their parents' last moments (also, the narrative only allows Elsa to be affected by seeing this - Anna is there to comfort her, but nothing is said about how she feels about this).

And I know, the point is that Anna should let Elsa go (even though I laugh at people pointing out that Elsa does not need to be protected by Anna, because she has magic powers - have they seen the movies? In which Elsa almost gets murdered by Hans and then freezes in Atohallan?), but in my opinion Forzen 2 really sidelines other characters than Elsa on the road to "Show Yourself" (which I consider pretty, but overall... unearned? One of the cut songs has Elsa actually working to figure out what is going on, instead of following the voice).

That being said... I love the visuals. I love the music ("Into the Unknown" has been my most listened to song on Spotify). I guess the difference is that in these 6 years, I went from admiring magical free spirit Elsa to feeling more connected to Anna, who gets stuff done and pushes forward in spite of difficulties.