"toxic Smart Doll community"?

Lately I saw one of the smart doll repaint artists being attacked for customizing smart dolls. 

 

And it strikes me, that it's the only doll community, that expresses such horrid behavior. I didn't hear about similar issues with resin bjd or even dollfie. What's more, that's what interests me in dolls - options to customize them. I have very limited interest in ready to go dolls, I don't want my doll to look like 1000 others, so it is hard for me to understand why customisation in smart doll community is such a taboo. 

 

I was wondering what is your opinion. Is smart doll community different from other doll communities? Why customizing smart doll is such an issue? 

Maybe you have some ideas why in this particular part of dolly world is different, what makes customisation SM a taboo? 

Hey, you should read this thread: 

In short I would say that Danny Choo cultivates a toxic community himself.

I saw all that, and that is one prime example why I couldn't deal with that community anymore. DC himself kind of ruined the dolls for me, but the community nailed it in cement and I doubt I will ever buy direct again, or even second hand. I am forced to look at the dolls every now and then but it makes me feel unhappy when I do so I try to avoid it. They are constantly suggested to me on IG and clothing and stuff for them on Etsy so they are difficult to ignore! I had so many of them and once I sold all the dolls and everything having to do with them off it was a like a weight lifted. Dolls are supposed to bring joy, not misery. I left the groups to try and enjoy the dolls again but the damage was done.

There was a lot of victim blaming and gaslighting going on, especially with regard to the two people involved in that issue. I feel the community was wonderful in the beginning and I don't know what happened but I do agree with @Weltfremd that DC cultivates the toxicity himself. I feel like a lot of his passive agressive posts spur them on to behave as they do. I just wish I could block that entire community and forget the dolls even exist and that is a crappy feeling to have

Edited April 19, 2021 by CrazyDollPerson
ugh typos

2 hours ago, forged_in_mess said:

Is smart doll community different from other doll communities? Why customizing smart doll is such an issue? 

Well...

I do recall some discussion with you in the debacle thread, so you should have some idea what could be the issue.

Why it becomes an issue is a bit of a fellowship thing I suppose.

The following is my opinion, not quotable fact:

I've always seen the company head as having been more of a producer than actual designer of things, but wants to make believe the illusion that it was all done by themselves. Some things might have been, but im more biased to think senpai sees something on the internet, turns to his staff and sayes "make it so", and then follows an instagram post "Look what I did."

For instance you can research the digitrevx (a distinctive enough handle, to maybe also be of Melody infamy?) stuff on the forum about the creation of the dude body (also refered to in the debacle thread at one point)

So now if you start to gather enough people around this concept of the great creator, if gone to an enough of an extreme (as it seems to get on occasion), people doing mods to culture japan items are seen as messing with the creators work in the strongest company fanbase, and take vocal offence

But this is just my old fart, who has never liked the company take on this...

 

You might run into some friction in the general doll hobby about modifications, but id say those are limited to when someone does something to a rare doll or head.

but in general I think the concept of "their doll, their right" wins in these occasions in general.

 

 

 

I think part of it also is that Choo tends to come up with entire backstories and personalities/ideals the doll is supposed to represent for some of them, so I can see how some hardcore fans would think changing the character is "disrespectful to his vision" or something. Also SmD are one of the few bjd companies that don't regularly sell blank heads, so most people who wanted to repaint a SmD would have to remove the faceup it came with, which I guess could also be seen as disrespectful to the work the company put into making that faceup...

But this community is founded on customizing and creativity, so discouraging artists from putting their own touch on a Smart Doll seems silly to me. Heck, one of the newer girls they've put out (Curiosity) was based on an independent artist faceup!

 

5 hours ago, finnleo said:

So now if you start to gather enough people around this concept of the great creator, if gone to an enough of an extreme (as it seems to get on occasion), people doing mods to culture japan items are seen as messing with the creators work in the strongest company fanbase, and take vocal offence

Kind of like a religion?
 

(Slightly NSFW)

 

I'm of the mind that once you buy something you can do whatever you want with it, as that item is now your property.

People who feel the need to police others' property, purchases, or otherwise shame others in general need to just mind their own business imo. I don't have time for people who tell me how to enjoy something I purchased with my own hard-earned money.

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that once you buy something, then you can do what you want with it, regardless of anyone else's opinion on the matter. The criticism that some people have received for altering their Smart Dolls completely boggles my mind. I can't help but believe that it's down to 'messing with the creator's vision' as @finnleo said.

I also wonder if the age factor is coming into play here, since SmD seems to be marketed at a younger audience these days, and with the whole mantra of the company seeming to be 'anyone with who doesn't agree with you is just a hater'... without mentioning that you aren't justified in hurling abuse at said 'hater' - well I just think it's a very dangerous mix (charismatic creator + impressionable youth = potential for big problems) . Sure ignore the haters, but don't become a d*ck in the process.

It all makes me remember that supposedly, the S and the M in 'Smart Doll' stands for Social Media, and it seems to be embracing the more unpleasant traits of it...

 

(I don't know if we talking about the same thing @forged_in_mess, but I was reading a post on instagram just the other day by a user fairly well-known for their Smart Doll photos, about the abuse they and their partner had been getting from some people in the SmD community for repainting and even selling their dolls.)

 

Smart Doll's community in general comes off as incredibly rigid, toxic and exclusionary, since they all believe DC can do no wrong. So, I can't say I'm at all surprised by this. But disgusted? Absolutely. Getting bashed for customizing a SmD is saddening, and ridiculous. I heavily agree with @Zaliayn that the younger age of the SmD community overall and DC's company "mantra" play huge factors in this as well.

I also agree with @CrazyDollPerson in that I also wish I could forget CJ exists. I can honestly say I have never come across a single doll community that I have ever wanted nothing to do with more. It makes me all the more grateful for super relaxed communities like this one.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Selenae

3 hours ago, BeyondTime said:

Kind of like a religion?

I knew I was stepping into that one by using the word creator ... But personally I dont really want to go that route.

my theory being in part that people might be getting some kind of passive fullfilment in watching the general progression of the company and its projects

and maybe the people in the deep end of the fanbase with this trait might start taking offence when someone improves on items the company makes, almost like a personal insult -- as in "How dare you touch stuff I was a part of seeing into fruition!" when they didnt really have any other role apart from being a spectator.

 

I think we went through the whole fanbase composition, and attitude in some part in the debacle thread, but because this whole product of a bit of a social media expirment from day one, results will be peculiar ... I can only hope I dont run out of popcorn and marshmellows while observing ...

 

About the bad attitude within doll scene, one of my fashion doll friend told me once that Sybarite scene is/was insane. So much insane that he never wanted to be in any closer contact in that in any way. Kind of sounded same like the things in this topic, people telling what you can and cannot do and going berserk for using offbrand items etc... (this was about 10 years ago so hopefully it has changed). 

 

40 minutes ago, finnleo said:

I knew I was stepping into that one by using the word creator ... But personally I dont really want to go that route.

At its core though I think you have an underlying human characteristic that drives people to react with hostility towards those who defy accepted norms for their group.   I.e. I’m in group A, group A forbids this conduct, therefore I must beat anyone who defies that rule into submission.

Religious persecution is one of the most egregious examples of that behavior, but the behavior of high school cliques would be another example and perhaps more appropriate here given the age of some of his followers. 

Of course following that line of reasoning to its conclusion, we also beat on senpai for defying accepted behavior norms with regards to customer service, so it’s a bit of a treacherous slope. 

10 hours ago, finnleo said:

The following is my opinion, not quotable fact:

I've always seen the company head as having been more of a producer than actual designer of things, but wants to make believe the illusion that it was all done by themselves. Some things might have been, but im more biased to think senpai sees something on the internet, turns to his staff and sayes "make it so", and then follows an instagram post "Look what I did."

In the other thread I made a post saying that I think Danny doesn't know what he wants his target audience to be, and I think this is a facet of that.

I think he wants his dolls to be seen as 'designer' and super duper special, and doesn't want people with subpar faceup skills to modify his dolls and potentially "misrepresent" his brand. Additionally, he's made it obvious that he markets these dolls as characters, kind of like Barbie/Skipper/Ken, etc., and I think that plays into it, too. Volks does this too, obviously, but they have no issues whatsoever with modding their dolls and even support it/celebrate it.

I really get that impression because I remember reading somewhere, either his IG or the site, some super anal-retentive information on placing the eyes, and how they have to be just right and the doll won't look good, and that's really bad.

It's why I'm seriously astounded that he not only 'allows' others to make clothes for his dolls but also draws attention to them and puts out free patterns. Considering how stylized the clothing he sells is, I'm really surprised he lets anything 'go against the grain'. But you'll notice that most of the seamstresses he promotes all make clothing at the same quality (or better) as CJ does.

Overall I really just think that SmD is just one giant ego trip for Danny. The man bounces from one idea to the next and can't stick with anything, and he's so far up his own butt (like the massive lectures/rants/dramabarfs in his IG posts and even (embarrassingly) in his item descriptions) that he doesn't know what he wants anything to be.

And again I'll say that he can't simultaneously market these dolls as designer and super duper special while still marketing them to children. Man just can't make up his mind.

 

8 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

I think part of it also is that Choo tends to come up with entire backstories and personalities/ideals the doll is supposed to represent for some of them, so I can see how some hardcore fans would think changing the character is "disrespectful to his vision" or something.

This is like what I said above, but you made me realize that it's really funny that even he can't stick to his own visions. He changes dolls on a whim continuously, even after they've been released for a while.

Yeah, like Chitose was one of his original anime inspired characters, like Kanata and Mirai, but he completely revamped her look.  You can't even buy the original Chitose anymore. 

@DreamDollDesign You nailed it, in my opinion. The whole company very much feels like one huge ego trip for Danny. Honestly, if I were a SmD fan, I would be worried about the company's longevity based on that alone.

I don’t think it’s just that smartdoll doesn’t sell blank heads. I used to be in the azone community for a while and while you can get blank azone heads, so many people were repainting fullsets to great applause - usually only the original eyes of the facepaint stayed and a new expression, extra blush and lash were painted. In some cases the entire face was repainted (such as when the doll had a unique hair colour they wanted that couldn’t be replicated with a blank rooted head or wig) Theres also whole communities for repainting Barbie, Bratz, Monsterhigh, Disney and other fashion dolls long before Smartdoll was around. 

It’s a really odd change because I remember way back in the day when I was still part of the smd community, back when there was only a handful of characters to buy and no one was discontinued, Danny definitely RTd customised ones. Back when the main hub of the Smartdoll community was not Facebook groups but the smd subforum  of the Dollfie Dream forum (ie, the previous version of this forum), we even had a thread for custom smartdolls (it still exists here if you go digging...)True, this was when the community hadn’t really taken off so he could very easily RT nearly everything tagged with smartdoll every day without clogging his followers feeds, something that wouldn’t be possible now. 

Nowadays, Smartdolls main audience is people who aren’t really familiar with other types of dolls so the smartdoll is their first type of ‘big expensive doll’ ever, whether they’re children or not (this is not speculation, he has said this several times). this is VERY different to the original community being an offshoot of the DD and BJD community who were all well versed in the concept of customisation and things like buying fullset dolls whether you like or even care about the actual character they represent, solely because you want their head sculpt. (See: me with my two Lens who aren’t Len, all the pretty 2B/9S repaints around the place etc)

Smartdoll fans also skew younger and in my experience a lot of younger people don’t understand customisation, or the fact that it’s a cornerstone of hobbies like this, and they get hyper attached to how things ‘should’ be. When the Kagamine Rin and Len DDs came out I saw a few people who were quite young and brand new to DDs (and a few who weren’t even actually in the hobby but were still Rin/Len fans) bemoaning the fact that anyone would buy them and then use them to make custom dolls who ARENT Rin or Len, saying stuff like ‘how dare they  take away a chance to own Rin or Len from someone who actually wanted them?!’ 

Recently I heard about someone getting attacked by young fans of a certain male character because somebody bought a nendoroid of him and repainted his face/hair to look like their original character. They couldn’t seem to accept that this was a completely normal hobby thing to do - there are even entire online stores dedicated to selling individual nendoroid parts for projects like this (ie Chibi Chop Shop), and the attitude reminded me of what is being described here with smartdoll fans.

tldr it’s because the smartdoll community has become so separate to the bjd/DD/fashion doll community that things we do that are completely normal and expected are alien, bizarre and outrageous to them. Yet it still makes me sad that they’d react that viciously to it. Is there any screenshots of this incident?

(lastly this is slightly less serious speculation but I have to wonder if it’s related to the garage dolls at all. Maybe the knowledge that people can and will repaint smartdolls is not something they want to deal with because it forces them to accept that just maaaybe that garage ‘one of a kind’ smartdoll who costs $3000 just because she has a slightly different faceup....might not have actually been worth $3000. That or it’s heresy to think you have ‘the right’ to alter ‘perfection’...)

Edited April 20, 2021 by Monty

Yeah, the over priced garage items are so insane.  Volks certainly sells plenty of one offs, but not for 6x the price of similar dolls. 

I think that's right that Smartdoll is bringing in a brand new audience to vinyl dolls, and bjds more generally, and that is something I do commend Danny for.  He is reaching people that Volks had not been reaching.  I think what CJ has that is most attractive to new buyers is lots of dolls that are readily available.  If I found out about Vinyl dolls and decided I wanted to buy one from the manufacturer right now, I'm going to have a lot more options in Smart Dolls compared to Dollfie Dream.  Lotteries, Click Wars, Preorders with long wait periods are all very off putting for someone who is just looking to have ONE DOLL (because you can totally stop with one!), and they'd like to have her within a week or two.  It's just a very different thing than someone who has been in the hobby for a while and know the schedule of pre-orders and events, how and when to buy what things and all that.  Insiders are used to it, and it's fun with new things and special things coming out all the time.  But for a new buyer, it comes across as very little actually for sale to them right now, which is what matters.

 

@Monty I'm one of those people who wants a custom 9S. I'd probably be shred to pieces verbally in Smart Doll land for saying that, but his sculpt fits the teenage version of an oc I've been itching to shell since I entered the hobby perfectly.

@Selenae I always wonder why anyone cares what this or that random Facebook group has to say about anything.  If there are some Smartdoll clubs out there than don't like customization for whatever reason, certainly you could still buy the dolls and enjoy them in communities that understand how craft based hobbies like BJD function.  I'm sure people could post their customized dolls here without any issues. 

I see lots of dolls that are just not my style but don't say anything cause that's rude and a waste of everyone's time. Seeing someone mod a $600 doll into something that they personally don't like bothers some people a lot AND makes them vocal though. These people usually stick out way more than the ones who just go 🙃 to themselves and close the tab.

If someone wants to flip out over what someone else is doing with their money, it's usually coming from a place of envy or jealousy from what I've experienced. They might not even mean to be rude- just thinking "omfg how can you afford this expensive thing AND modify it?! I can't even buy it at the original price" etc

Also keep in mind there aren't blank "entry level" (as some like to call less expensive dolls) Smart Dolls. Even used, it's seriously uncommon to find a Smart Doll for under $500 that isn't bought super fast. There are 1/3 resin dolls for $300, which isn't pennies obviously, but customizing something around that price is a lot less scarier than say, a doll who's body or blank head you can't even buy on it's own (easily).

It reminds me of Minifees tbh. You can't buy their bodies and heads separately either, so that combined with the production time leads to people selling bodies alone (sometimes even damaged) for the price of a full doll. I feel like people who get vocal about this stuff are just envious or have an inflated ego lol.

 

Also, you ever heard of BJD Confession blogs? People will totally whine over others "destroying" a "perfectly good doll." Maybe Smart Doll owners you've seen are just very bold? 😉

@rainglow Oh god, I don't need to be reminded that those awful blogs exist. They are toxic as hell. They remind me that even doll collectors can be nasty, vicious people, something I don't want to associate this forum with.

3 hours ago, Monty said:

tldr it’s because the smartdoll community has become so separate to the bjd/DD/fashion doll community that things we do that are completely normal and expected are alien, bizarre and outrageous to them. Yet it still makes me sad that they’d react that viciously to it. Is there any screenshots of this incident?

I didn't keep up with the whole fallout but here is the IG link of 7xana7 and his take on the issue. His fiancee had to deactivate most of her social media as the attacks were making her depressed.

Also, screencaps about customization.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CNwi4j8D1zA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited April 20, 2021 by bbotss
Edited IG link

8 hours ago, DreamDollDesign said:

It's why I'm seriously astounded that he not only 'allows' others to make clothes for his dolls but also draws attention to them and puts out free patterns.

Its actually an intriguing thing this ... I had a bit of a hobbyist acid test last december when talking to a person in real life about what vinyl doll to get, and they were drawn specificly to smart doll because of the clothing patterns on offer, and they came from a very creative handcraft family. (And if you are curious, I didnt try to actively deter them away from the brand, but just made my own stance clear that im not the best person to ask about this perticular brand because historics... anyways...)

So there is some draw with this approach apparently

 

9 hours ago, BeyondTime said:

Of course following that line of reasoning to its conclusion, we also beat on senpai for defying accepted behavior norms with regards to customer service, so it’s a bit of a treacherous slope. 

Well, at least we try and make an effort to give every situation that is brought before our little panel jury a fair shake before swinging whatever comes to hand first, but yeah.. winding narrow path and all.

 

52 minutes ago, bbotss said:

Also, screencaps about customization.

after seeing the word sell in there ... Im guessing what set the deep-enders off might have been the possible selling for profit bits.

but again, taking something, putting your own effort into it, and getting monetary returns for your efforts has been a part of this hobby, even on this forum.

 

1 hour ago, finnleo said:

after seeing the word sell in there ... Im guessing what set the deep-enders off might have been the possible selling for profit bits.

but again, taking something, putting your own effort into it, and getting monetary returns for your efforts has been a part of this hobby, even on this forum.

 

I don't think the part about selling refers to the artist selling her work or services. Afaik the artist is being attacked for customizing her fiance's dolls, which the hardcore fans felt was the cause of a "change" in her fiancee's doll styling and photography.

What _yukaiso_ suggested was that the artist, instead of using a doll she or her fiance already own for their customization, they should buy chaos blanks to do so. For example, even if they had a Starlight that they paid for and which they felt would be perfect for their custom character, they should instead buy chaos heads and hope that they get a Starlight. If they don't, they should still try to customize whatever chaos heads they get instead and hope it fits their custom character. If that doesn't work out, then they can easily sell the chaos head in question.

In short, _yukaiso_ thinks they shouldn't customize their own doll as this would result in one less original smartdoll in the world. Instead, they should throw their money on chaos blank heads and resell those should they not work out. Which is ironic since they clearly mentioned that the couple needed funds and thought selling chaos customs would help. (What about spending money on chaos in the first place tho)

Edited April 20, 2021 by bbotss

6 hours ago, That_Dollfie_Dude said:

I always wonder why anyone cares what this or that random Facebook group has to say about anything.  If there are some Smartdoll clubs out there than don't like customization for whatever reason, certainly you could still buy the dolls and enjoy them in communities that understand how craft based hobbies like BJD function.  I'm sure people could post their customized dolls here without any issues. 

I think it is hard not to care of you are being bullied or harassed. You should be allowed to post your dolls, in doll communities/platforms (in accordance to it rules), without some elitist backlash. Yes, you'd be in the wrong if you go out of your way to post a customized doll in a group that does not allow them. But I think the issue here is people/members who go from that group, with the don't-alter-dolls mindset, and apply it all over the place like it is gospel.