"toxic Smart Doll community"?

@Yumeiro It sounds like those groups are simply uneducated about BJD.  Someone needs to make a short and easy to understand video about the history independent artists and BJD customization, which obviously goes way back before Danny Choo and Smart Doll.  Then just link the video any time this sentiment comes up.  The point being that if they choose to keep all the original faceups then that's great.  (I do that myself because I'm not an artist!)  But, the world of BJD includes vinyl as a subset, which includes Smart Doll as a subset of that. 

Perhaps this is an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, where these particular types of "Smart Doll only" are only able to be so confident in their statements and attitudes because of their lack of knowledge about BJDs, their culture, and their history.  The one who knows very little more easily considers themselves to be an expert.

 

8 minutes ago, That_Dollfie_Dude said:

@Yumeiro It sounds like those groups are simply uneducated about BJD.  Someone needs to make a short and easy to understand video about the history independent artists and BJD customization, which obviously goes way back before Danny Choo and Smart Doll.  Then just link the video any time this sentiment comes up.  The point being that if they choose to keep all the original faceups then that's great.  (I do that myself because I'm not an artist!)  But, the world of BJD includes vinyl as a subset, which includes Smart Doll as a subset of that. 

Perhaps this is an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, where these particular types of "Smart Doll only" are only able to be so confident in their statements and attitudes because of their lack of knowledge about BJDs, their culture, and their history.  The one who knows very little more easily considers themselves to be an expert.

Yet on the other hand, as soon as they get into the Smartdoll world, they're being fed information about "elitist bjd companies", "that other company which hotglues eyes in", "the entitled" and "the haters", because almost every Smartdoll group contain the same hardcore fans who share the same sentiments. Unless a newbie is willing and able to set aside consumer loyalty to the first beautiful doll brand they have discovered, it will be difficult for them to remain objective and accept differing opinions.

I think they will have to open up in time.  It's hard to call others elitist while only supporting a single maker and rejecting customization!  It's not "hate" to recognize that Smartdoll is part of a larger whole.  I don't fault a brand for trying to build brand loyalty (ONLY for SMART DOLL, etc.).  But once that progresses beyond that point to people thinking that the dolls are in a world of their own, totally apart from any other BJDs, then they've lost their way, because that can never be true.  Smartdolls are vinyl bjds, with the idea taken from Dollfie Dream, and that will always be the case.

Young people in fandoms also tend to get emotionally attached to/fight over some very strange and silly-sounding things. From boy bands (N*sync vs Backstreet Boys, BTS vs EXO, etc) to ship wars* (Team Edward vs Team Jacob); they latch on to things and make it a part of their identity so much that any criticism against it or comments favorable to the Rival Team feels like a personal attack on themselves. It's unhealthy, but also sort of a natural part of growing up. Hopefully they'll grow out of it. 

On the other hand, I've seen adult men fight over favorite sports teams and Star Wars vs Star Trek and Marvel vs DC...even though a lot of the players/actors/writers involved get along just fine...so maybe humans are just Like That. I think it's silly to deprive yourself of cool and interesting stuff from one fandom just because you also like the "rival" fandom, but whatever.

(*don't even get me started on yaoi fans fighting over which person in their favorite ship tops...)

I would be perfectly willing to like both Volks and SmD if Choo wasn't so aggressive. Advertising yourself by putting other products down all the time has always seemed tacky to me.

I don’t own any SmDs and I don’t really plan to. I think they’re cute and I enjoy seeing pictures and reading about them but their size is too big for me. The one thing that really rubs me the wrong way about them is the way they are advertised. It seems like the customer is always being put down. Like, “if you complain, it’s your fault because you don’t understand the doll enough.” It just feels condescending and I don’t want to be looked down on when putting that much money down on a hobby item. I worry that this mentality towards customers translates into the community as a whole as everyone else has mentioned. It’s already isolating enough to be in a very niche hobby and then to further isolate it by creating a group of gatekeepers who will harass others for not being a “good” doll owner, I just don’t like it and don’t want to be a part of any of that.

2 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

so maybe humans are just Like That.

I’m sure there is an underlying cause rooted either in psychology or base instinct. 

 

2 hours ago, monkeypizzasonic said:

I've seen adult men fight over favorite sports teams and Star Wars vs Star Trek and Marvel vs DC

B5 vs DS9 is an apropos example of this, because the creator of B5 fueled the hostility with accusations of intellectual property theft. 

2 hours ago, BeyondTime said:

B5 vs DS9 is an apropos example of this, because the creator of B5 fueled the hostility with accusations of intellectual property theft. 

A bit off topic, but youth memories are just a juicy thing not to revisit.

This one is especially amusing since because of how television worked back in those days, we actually got DS9 on your TV's before B5 resulting in a few awkward moments...

But if you had been in Straczynski's shoes, you might have been annoyed about the situation too... You're running a shoestring production, with a relatively no-name cast, creating your main visual effects on an amiga, when the opposition that decided to crash your party has casting options up the gazoo, have practical scale shooting models with years of experience with them, and also ILM on speed dial. So I would argue this is still probably more of a true underdog story in the end why in some parts of the world it could be a warmer than avredge discussion -- Although oddly enough here in my fanboy group we appreciated both for what they were. Though if you consider budgets... just saying.

If I recall correct he did call off the lawsuit idea quite fast (because no real case, since there had been Battlestar Galactica, and Moonbase Alpha before, for instance) ... and still didnt stop him from hiring Walter Koening as Bester ... though I wonder if that was in protest or something ... which makes you wonder what the show would have been with William Shatner as Sheridan ... though I suppose he was too busy narrating Rescue 911 episodes... and now I really feel old ...

anyways... </offtopic>

3 hours ago, Orenjiina said:

The one thing that really rubs me the wrong way about them is the way they are advertised. It seems like the customer is always being put down. Like, “if you complain, it’s your fault because you don’t understand the doll enough.” It just feels condescending and I don’t want to be looked down on when putting that much money down on a hobby item.

This! Totally this. All the time I have a feeling that he's like having some kind of inner circle and you can get in only if you're understood his doll philosophy completely. And bought enough his stuff. I feel that in his point of view there's customers and "customers". Also I've been thinking that how much his photo reward campaigns will reinforce toxicity and the feeling that if your doll doesn't wear authentic Smartdoll clothes, you're lower cast hobbyist.       

 

(I had to take second look that what site am I browsing as DS9 was namedropped. Just watching the whole series through) 

Just wanted to add my two cents here, because I got into 1/3 dolls because I saw a Smart Doll and was mesmerized. I don't have specific examples to share (and because it's been over 2 years ago now), but the fact was simple when I entered the community: Smart Dolls good, 'Voolks Doolpa' BAD! Coming into the hobby completely unaware of most DD information, his website was extremely attractive and his mission statement sounded pure and good. I do believe it wasn't as bad back then, but times have certainly changed. So it was normal to accept that Volks dolls were beneath Danny's, uglier (in many comments from collectors and subtle hints from Danny). And for the longest time, I did consider SmD to be premium to Dollfies...until I owned one. While I don't have that original girl anymore, I was blown away by how anyone could say they were ugly. The quality on them felt 10X better. I didn't have to worry about breaking a wrist to move a hand. She felt far more sturdy than my Smart Dolls. By this time, I had started to see Danny go into berserker mode. The mistranslated Volks Dolpa tweet. The lady who had the audacity to write to Danny about the pair of boots. The price of the Mirai Carry and people banned in an instant they complained about said price. Initially I kept making excuses for his behavior, (because I'm an adult and just don't go all out mean girls because my 'senpai' says so), I started questioning what a mistake it was to even be a part of his community. More things/incidents kept happening, and Danny's posts and rants on I couldn't enjoy my girls anymore. I stopped posting in the group, but I staying in SMD (smart doll lovers). The last straw for me was the guy writing to Danny clearly about the quality of the wig he received and was roasted alive for it. And like a pack of chickens, people in the group followed suit. I couldn't believe what I was seeing anymore, and I sure as hell didn't want to be associated with that. Looking at my girls gave me anxiety, because I didn't want to be asked about them in public, because I'd be embarassed to lead anyone to the chicken scratch Choo cult. So, I sold my girls, made my instagram private, and I started over. It's odd to me that I racked up likes and comments when my instagram was Smart Doll based but my DD one in comparison is quite quiet. But I'm happier with what I've done. Dollfies are by no means perfect nor Volks, but I've never once seen Volks trash talk Danny on social media sites. My choice to leave the madness was a good one and while I miss my SmD, I don't regret leaving the community.

 

Note: I'm not saying that everyone who has a SmD is a part of Danny's cult. That's not what I am saying at all. I know plenty of people who have SmD and enjoy them without being affected by Danny's social media presence. I know a couple of people who have Smart Dolls and just don't have anything to do with the groups either, but sadly for me I couldn't disassociate my SmD and Danny's craziness.

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Deyja

13 minutes ago, Deyja said:

 So it was normal to accept that Volks dolls were beneath Danny's, uglier (in many comments from collectors and subtle hints from Danny). And for the longest time, I did consider SmD to be premium to Dollfies...until I owned one. While I don't have that original girl anymore, I was blown away by how anyone could say they were ugly. The quality on them felt 10X better. I didn't have to worry about breaking a wrist to move a hand. She felt far more sturdy than my Smart Dolls. By this time, I had started to see Danny go into berserker mode.

This is exactly what happened to me, too! I got my SmD and was kind of disappointed at how stiff and awkward she was. Then I fell in love with Miku, got her, and it was literally like the Toy Story clip of Andy dropping Woody saying "I don't want to play with you anymore" with my SmD lmao

DDs are so soft and malleable and moveable in comparison.

16 minutes ago, DreamDollDesign said:

This is exactly what happened to me, too! I got my SmD and was kind of disappointed at how stiff and awkward she was. Then I fell in love with Miku, got her, and it was literally like the Toy Story clip of Andy dropping Woody saying "I don't want to play with you anymore" with my SmD lmao

DDs are so soft and malleable and moveable in comparison.

Yes they are, and it's funny that Miku was your first. I think everyone needs a Miku in their life. I'm sorry if you got bullied at any point!

The issue with people getting on her about her (Andrea) customizations has many layers. First people were blaming her for the change in direction on her fiance's (Rich/7Xana7) own dolls. He stated on his IG that he had been in a bit of a funk but redoing a few of his girls and paring down some of his collection brought back some of his zest for the photography. People got up in arms because he sold a few of his "characters" which he states was literally just a SmD Starlight that he named and took photos of, thereby giving her "character" that in anyone elses hands she is still just a Starlight and he was ready to move on.

People were blaming her for his shift in his collecting, selling some of his dolls, and calling her the Yoko Ono of the SmD world. Mods in the group were deleting her posts and saying she needed to get a thicker skin because people were being nasty. A few people basically gaslit and victim blamed her over her feelings and mental state from being bullied in the community! She had enough and spoke up and people didn't like it.

Like I said there are many layers here, they are trying to build a relationship that is long distance...make money to move together (I think they wanted to move to Mexico and people were being super racist about their choice) and then there was the whole group of people feeling like she was ruining dolls by painting ones you can't get anymore.

You can go to Xana's IG page he wrote about 6 pages detailing things and said he was done with the community and I don't blame him. I feel bad for both of them, there are some really cool people in the SmD community but the rotten ones kind of ruin it, and even some of the cool people have said things that I thought were pretty shitty at time and it made me feel a type of way about them. Between the toxic hive mind of a large portion of the collectors and the incessant rants of Danny I could not enjoy my dolls at all. For a bit I kept telling myself I was supporting the true artists that made the dolls possible, but honestly there are so many great doll lines out there that I don't need to support one that makes me feel awful about their products. 

10 hours ago, Deyja said:

I've never once seen Volks trash talk Danny on social media sites.

Pretty sure that has to do with the politeness of Japanese society. Stooping to that level would be disgraceful, so they don’t. 
 

8 hours ago, CrazyDollPerson said:

I feel bad for both of them, there are some really cool people in the SmD community but the rotten ones kind of ruin it, and even some of the cool people have said things that I thought were pretty shitty at time and it made me feel a type of way about them.

Might be a case of the 80/20 rule at work with 80% of the toxicity coming from 20% of the community. 
 

12 hours ago, finnleo said:

But if you had been in Straczynski's shoes, you might have been annoyed about the situation too...

My issue with his comments is really that the similarities between B5 & DS9 were no more pronounced than the similarities between B5 & Asimov’s Foundation or Arthur C Clarke’s Overlords. Both of which are works Straczynski admits to reading as a kid. Plus some of it was just silly too like “they used the number 5 and those dastardly thief’s used the number 9,” which just seems more like an invitation to make Sesame Street jokes about the people involved than any sort of IP theft. 

But yeah, why not enjoy both? The dynamic between Londo and G’Kar alone makes watching all 5 seasons worthwhile, and DS9 was a nice departure from the usual Star Trek planet hopping fare. Sisko ended up my favorite captain after Kirk too.  
 

 

2 hours ago, BeyondTime said:

Pretty sure that has to do with the politeness of Japanese society. Stooping to that level would be disgraceful, so they don’t.

That may very well be, but they are still choosing Japanese society cues rather taking Danny's bait.

Good on Volks, I say, for not taking Danny's bait, even once.

Having originally gotten into BJDs reasonably early (12+ years ago), and then taking a break for the last several years because of my frustrations with resin. I recently came back around and decided to try out vinyl dolls for my collection. I was planning to get a Azone 50cm girl, but after researching everyone said that Smartdoll is better. So I've only been in the SmD hobby a few months and my only girl is 3rd-hand, but I'm starting to get worried about the community. 

I've also recently came from the Fantasy Pin community (anime/Disney/Harry Potter) and I'm working on leaving that because I got tired of "creators" trying to control pins after they've sold them (telling you when you can trade and sell, or how much/little you can sell for). 

So basically I'm worried that I may have stumbled into another elitist and controlling fandom. I've noticed that DC puts a lot of emphasis on the souls of his dolls and implies that they get angry if you don't treat them just so. I don't like that kind of energy being put into the universe. I think buying a secondhand doll is fine, and if she's got a soul then she'd probably want to be adopted into a new collection and appreciated! (Any Rozen Maiden fans here?). I just don't understand why DC seems threatened by dolls changing hands, being customized, etc?

Maybe it's because as others have said, I've got the history of the hobby (even with a lot of inactivity). But I'm wondering if I should just step out now to avoid a negative fandom? I really like the look of some of the dolls, but I'm already seeing issues with the professionalism and business practices. 

Also, I don't understand why he isn't making enough of the dolls people want and is instead constantly making new things but then they come and go so fast? (Like that release the other night a few new dolls sold out in hours and then said they won't be restocked, the blue dolls being delayed and then saying they won't be around long even though everyone seems to want one). It seems like that's also elitist, like you only get them if you stay up for the site refresh every night 😕

@ladyroselie In all honesty? Yes, it would be a very smart move to step out now, because elitist and controlling is exactly what the Smart Doll fandom is. Even worse is the fact that Danny Choo encourages this behavior with the things he posts, and the way he treats customers who so much as ask a question about defective items.

It says a lot that former Smart Doll owners on here were much happier after getting rid of their dolls due to the community alone.

If that isn't a huge red flag, I don't know what else would be.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Selenae

Even before reading all this and a good chunk of the Facebook post I opted out of getting a smd because I found the tone of the website off putting.  Having read everything, it does seem that was the right call for me even though I do love the diversity that smd has on offer.

@ladyroselie Yes, get out while you still can. You can still enjoy your dolls without being part of the exclusively smd-only community. There are others who have both smd and other company dolls and are able to appreciate both. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by bbotss

2 hours ago, ladyroselie said:

threatened by dolls changing hands

I don’t think I’ve read anything about him being upset about dolls being re-homed. It’s people who buy them in order to resell them at a profit that he objects to. 
 

2 hours ago, ladyroselie said:

but after researching everyone said that Smartdoll is better.

Some of the most experienced forum members here have argued Obitsu is better.

That said, look through the doll directory and some of the customization & photo threads. See which brands and sculpts you really like the look of, and don’t worry so much about what others think is the best one. It sounds like you like dolls, and vinyls do have some advantages over strung dolls. 

I don’t think you can really go wrong quality wise with Volks or Obitsu. 

Ok I  noticed this statement from SmD website and now I'm seriously annoyed

 

Quote

The fashion doll hobby can be an overwhelming first-time experience for a newbie. With Smart Doll, I wanted to remove complicated concepts and in doing so make it easy for a first-timer to get started. As a result, 80% of our customers are first-time fashion doll owners.

I think that calling Smartdoll as a fashion doll is bit of a stretch. But more than that, he claims that 80% his customers haven't had any before. Fashion doll term covers Barbie, Bratz, Monster high, Fashion royalty etc, dolls that are meant to represent current fashion trends and/or haute couture... (in Asian countries Blythe, Pullip, Jenny for example). I have really REALLY hard time to believe that 80% customers wouldn't had ANY of these dolls before. 

And the reason that I don't see SmD as a fashion doll is lack of... fashion. They have very limited supply of clothes and styles for them and they want to be very exclusive thing. Surprisingly it relies very much on 2nd party offerings that how fashionable your fashion doll can be. 

 

edit: I think that this kind of statements give very much fuel for the Higher class-doll owner attitude... 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Akito

2 hours ago, ladyroselie said:

everyone said that Smartdoll is better.

Also, I don't understand why he isn't making enough of the dolls people want and is instead constantly making new things but then they come and go so fast?

While I'm thinking twice about ever ordering anything Smartdoll related again, I still stand by that Smartdoll has the best bodies, for me/my tastes.
It is not a prefect product, but it was easy to overlook in the beginning, with the warranty and "of course we will help!". Now? I'd fear getting publicly ridiculed for asking/for contacting them on the matter. No matter what their warranty policy states.
It is weird... Having gone from loving the company, the policies, and of course the products, to very much detesting them all based on the creators outbursts and behavior... Is that the vision any company should have? Just to say that you care more about your employees, do you need to paint your customers as the enemy? So quick to spread hate and negativity, under the guise of being good and benevolent. It is no wonder the fanbase is toxic in return.


He has stated over and over that he does not care about money, or what people want - that hurts his employees, and their creativity. So they make the dolls that they want. Nothing wrong with that... But it doesn't help his stance on preventing scalpers and resellers, by seemingly putting a random limit on some of his products.
You cannot claim to not understand the frustration of your customers at least.

I think this might be a good a place as any to share my unusual experience with CJ.  Maybe I’ll get banned talking about it, but I feel I should share this now.  ><

Last fall when I was looking at Vinyl BJDs, like Yumeiro, I was drawn more toward Smartdoll for their body design, particularly the tummy that does not have any real visible cut across it like Dollfie Dream has.  In any case, before ordering I asked if they still had any of the old painted breasts (“Headlights on,” as they are called on the website).  Ai-chan said they don’t make them anymore and cannot be ordered.

I was disappointed but decided to order anyway.  I got the customary email from Danny asking why I was ordering Smartdoll when there are so many other great brands.  (At the time I thought this was a sign of humility).  I wrote about all kinds of stuff, and my history in Japan and working for Japanese companies and all that.  And I asked him if the painted breast option might ever make a comeback.

Danny gave me a surprising reply!  They were apparently not coming back to they store, BUT He was going to include a set FOR FREE with my order as a special service!  I thought that was amazing!  However, he included a condition.  I wasn’t allowed to take pictures of my doll while she had the painted bust on, even if she was wearing clothes.  He said not to show her to anyone.  

That left me feeling quite conflicted, because on the one hand he was being quite kind and generous offering a discontinued item for free on a whim, but on the other hand, photography and posting and sharing is a big part of the fun of having dolls, especially in these COVID times.

Then I found out about how people can get banned from the Smartdoll shop if they anger Danny or ask questions, and I began to think that I’ve been given a burden.  I’m also not really sure why I can’t post any pictures when lots of people got them before they were discontinued and there are plenty of pictures to be found.

In any event, this is just my experience of CJ trying to control an item after they’ve already shipped it out, and I think it’s kind of strange and really dampens my appreciation of the gift and the doll in the first place. 

I only have 4 chaos head and one eiji(only for his body XD), and a lots of DD, i love customice my dolls, all this fight of smd VS volks remind me of my first time in the hobby, my first doll was a Dana AR and in this time here in Spain the elite dolls were Volks so if you have a korean or China doll (doll zone) then you were a lesser colector because korean and china  dolls  were cheap and bad quality, fortunatly this only last a couple of years as more and more brands of dolls were in the market. I dont mind what other people like or dont, only what i like. I have a instagram count but i dont tag my photos i dont wanna this toxic people in my life.

Edited April 21, 2021 by kalisha

27 minutes ago, That_Dollfie_Dude said:

Danny gave me a surprising reply!  They were apparently not coming back to they store, BUT He was going to include a set FOR FREE with my order as a special service!  I thought that was amazing!  However, he included a condition.  I wasn’t allowed to take pictures of my doll while she had the painted bust on, even if she was wearing clothes.  He said not to show her to anyone.  

That left me feeling quite conflicted, because on the one hand he was being quite kind and generous offering a discontinued item for free on a whim, but on the other hand, photography and posting and sharing is a big part of the fun of having dolls, especially in these COVID times.

That is insane. Once it's yours, it's yours, he has no right to tell you what you can and can't do with your purchase. Also sounds like he still has some, why not sell them since people want them? I seriously don't get it.