Scalping?

the problem i think with "scalping" is that it is unfair

 

 

they likely have many accounts to enter the lottery with... which is breaching the terms and conditions

 

 

so if i enter the lottery i have a smaller chance of winning simply because i'm not cheating

 

The thing is, there's no way to make it fair. There's no way to know if a person is using others to put in 2, 5, even 10 entries if they use different addresses and cc info. And the thing is, legitimate collectors also enter multiple times: my bf and I both entered for Noumi (and lost!), and I know people who have asked friends to enter as well if it's a doll they really love. It's not like Volks can test people to see if they really really want a doll before entering!

 

And you can definitely win with one entry: we've won Aerie, Akira, Mariko, Lucy & Haruka with only one entry per a doll--I think in general they aren't really THAT hard to get, it's not like you have a 1 in 10 shot or anything--it's usually a 60% to 30% chance of winning, though on some dolls (specifically the Shining Hearts girls) winning percentages were closer to 75% if not higher. After-market prices are what really suck, but the market decides itself based on the popularity of the doll as well as how limited they are. There's nothing we can do about it, it's just part of the hobby--part of any collecting hobby.

 

And let's be honest: if, for some reason, you finally get a doll and don't like it as much as you thought you would I think many people here wouldn't sell it for exactly what they paid. Most dolls, even ones sold by very nice people who are in no way flippers/scalpers, go for market price, not retail (there are exceptions, of course--many of us have gotten awesome deals!). Selling a doll for what it is worth is not bad or wrong--it's just part of collecting. For example, if for some reason I really needed money and had to sell some PVC figures, I wouldn't put them at retail--you look around, see what something is worth, and try to match prices or come a bit under so your stuff sells faster. Dolls are the same way.

 

With newer dolls it's a bit more iffy, as these are the sales that "set" the market prices. But the thing is, if someone wants to overcharge by a ton and everyone KNOWS they are overcharging, it's not going to sell. One person on Flickr isn't going to raise a doll's overall price by $400.

Talolili, I remember seeing your posts in both the Facebook group and on Flickr before you deleted them. As far as I recall, no one called you a name, much less something vulgar.

 

Well apparently you didn't see the entire conversation, Vhdangel. Nobody called me any names on the Flickr group at all but the Facebook group was a different story. It's all old news now but I still think it's some ridiculous behavior that keeps occurring.

Talolili, I remember seeing your posts in both the Facebook group and on Flickr before you deleted them. As far as I recall, no one called you a name, much less something vulgar.

 

Well apparently you didn't see the entire conversation, Vhdangel. Nobody called me any names on the Flickr group at all but the Facebook group was a different story. It's all old news now but I still think it's some ridiculous behavior that keeps occurring.

 

Actually, I have a screen shot of the FB conversation. Would you like me to send it to you?

 

This isn't to say that name calling doesn't happen in this community. It does and it's mostly unwarranted. But perhaps that would be better addressed in its own topic? Maybe an "Etiquette in the Community" thread?

Here's a link to the drama: http://www.flickr.com/groups/dollfiedream/discuss/72157629119087832/

 

After reading through this Flickr post I have to say I find it embarrassing for the DD community. Not because of the seller but for the hateful angry attacks against them.

 

If you don't think they are selling the doll at a fair price just move on or at most, leave a comment that you think they are asking too much for that doll. Resorting to name calling and suggestions that the seller has a small "manhood" is very childish and sad.

 

I just hope this name calling attitude isn't where the DD community is headed.

Well, we had very interesting discussion here, with the same person... and I have a bad aftertaste now.

I have to say that I agree with Alphakitty, Otakudepot and others with similar sentiments. If people want to sell their "whatever" for X amount that's their business. Their reasons behind it are also their own. The internet is a horrible place/way to judge emotions and reasons for why people do things. Scalping is obviously no fun or good for the hobby, but it will always exist in just about any hobby. While unfortunate, it's better to just avoid those people and move on. Yelling at them or calling them names won't do anything but make "you" (the general you) look bad. Personally, I think it's better to let people "dig their own grave", so to speak. It's far worse to ignore someone than to call them names and stoop to their level. If you feel you must say something just keep in mind you can still come out on top by being the more mature person even if you don't change their mind.

 

Just my 2 cents plus tax.

 

Also, just to note, let's not turn this thread into an attack on any certain members, please.

I personally wonder if some of the vitriol in the Flickr group wasn't a result of that person's communications on this forum. I assume there's a healthy amount of cross-over between this forum and Flickr, and wouldn't be surprised if people on Flickr were fully aware of the "conversation" that happened here.

 

Still, I wish it had remained a bit more civil. The name-calling did seem rather out-of-line. And like Averis, I think the best thing to do is let someone "dig their own grave." When "you" engage in name-calling and/or harassment, "you" might as well be jumping down in to that grave with them and ruining "your" own reputation. [Generic "you" of course.]

 

Besides, if a community hasn't banned scalping, it's really not any member's job to confront perceived scalpers. And if a community has banned scalping, the best thing to do would be to contact the mods/admins.

I personally wonder if some of the vitriol in the Flickr group wasn't a result of that person's communications on this forum. I assume there's a healthy amount of cross-over between this forum and Flickr, and wouldn't be surprised if people on Flickr were fully aware of the "conversation" that happened here.

Of course they were. There's a link inside the flickr thread to thread on our forum, just in the middle.

And our forum is open to guests, no need to log-in.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really eager to police scalping. As many have said in this thread, there are many reasons as to why people price things a certain way. To "ban" scalping is basically asking to judge someone for their reasons behind it. Those reasons can be pretty personal, emergency needs, bills, leaving the hobby, etc. While some may be very obvious, if someone wants to overprice something, it just won't sell. Simple as that. And maybe there's an off chance someone is desperate enough and has the cash. Putting a ban on it won't make it go away or force people to lower their price. It will only add one more thing for us to moderate. Especially when the poster wants to argue their reasons for doing it. So far this hasn't been an issue here as far as I am aware, but that's why we have feedback and a warning on the marketplace. I think most people realize that wouldn't go over very well here. Most here are too educated in this hobby to fall for it. It would be a lost cause.

I just want to be 100% clear, I'm not saying this forum (or ANY forum/comm) should ban scalping, just that some forums do and even in those cases, I still don't think it's appropriate to confront the perceived scalper.

 

Basically:

If it's not banned, then the person isn't doing anything wrong = no reason to confront the person in question.

If it is banned (like on DoA), then contact the admin/mod = still no reason to confront the person in question.

 

I was just trying to emphasize how inappropriate name-calling is in all situations, not comment on how this forum (or any forum/comm, really) is run. Hope that makes sense?

Hehe, that's fine, I was just commenting on it, not criticizing the suggestion.

Wow things got really out of hand over there! The person who posted was just minding their own business and bumping their sale. Everyone who replied after that just attacked with no provocation. I have seen DDs that went at prices I thought were too much but I did not go around posting/replying/messaging that they are jerks or antagonizing them. Really, that was ridiculous, and quite embarrassing. I hope that seller is okay after all of that.

 

I'm am so relieved that here at least, there was calm conversing and debating ones opinions, not that throwdown that occurred over there :S

I don't think it's a bad thing to confront a scalper. That's not the same as calling them a name. No one should have to resort to harassment and insults.

 

But if you don't say something when you see a scalping in progress, you run the risk of it attracting attention and misleading people. Take eBay for example. I've seen a lot of people who are brand new to the hobby get excited and post about their new doll, only to find out that they paid an exorbitant price, and my heart sinks. One, because they could have paid a more reasonable price, and two, because now their purchase is added to the data of the market, and raises the price of the doll that much more. I believe in fair market value, but market value comes from a bleepulative of all purchases, including the ridiculously priced eBay auctions.

 

Also, if one person throws up their doll for say, $2000, and the next seller sees it and puts their doll up for the same price without researching the market, and the next, and so on. Get enough dolls posted for that price and collectors will feel that they HAVE to start offering more or pay near that price in order to obtain that particular doll.

 

Does the seller have the right to set whatever price they want for the item they're selling? Absolutely. But members of the community also have the right to inform others of the current market value. Sometimes that requires posting in that seller's thread, if they are advertising in the community. If they don't want any comments or opinions, they have other options open to them, like eBay or conventions.

 

Scalping in this hobby is a dual-edged sword. On the one hand, it immediately increases the value of the dolls we own and almost assures their value with continue to rise. On the other, it makes it increasingly difficult for those that lost out on the lotteries or joined the community later to have access to these beautiful items. I guess I'm just one of those that would be ok with my dolls merely holding their value instead of skyrocketing, so as to be better able to afford the ones I'd like to own.

 

Edited to Add:

 

Let's turn the tables here a moment. What happens if someone came to the community and posted that they wanted to BUY a Sasara for $700. Do you think that it's reasonable for others in the community to jump in and correct that person? I see that happening a lot, too. How is it any different than someone commenting on the price of a doll for sale?

Rofl I pretty much agree with that, scalping is definitely a double-edged sword.

 

But in regards to your edit, I think it became different the moment the comment changed from the seller's bumping to the next post. It seems to me, outsider looking in, that the seller had obviously decided not to listen to their advice and continue trying to sell that Saber at that price. That is perfectly within their rights, just don't buy the Saber from that seller then right? I don't want to feel as though I am attacking someone I do not even know, but that next comment was worded very aggressively and seemed to open a can of worms wherein alot of people jumped and said even more aggressive and mean things. That was ENTIRELY unnecessary.

 

There is a difference between "informing" someone and "putting-down" someone. I feel it the same way as I do with Critiques. There is no need to get nasty, if they were not nasty to you.

 

[EDIT]

 

Okay I read the thread that Rafael made on here and I am dying with laughter. S/he is...certainly something. Wow. Also your replies were even more amazing! This place may be small as compared to DA, but everyone is so much closer and more personable. /sorryigotofftopic

But in regards to your edit, I think it became different the moment the comment changed from the seller's bumping to the next post. It seems to me, outsider looking in, that the seller had obviously decided not to listen to their advice and continue trying to sell that Saber at that price. That is perfectly within their rights, just don't buy the Saber from that seller then right? I don't want to feel as though I am attacking someone I do not even know, but that next comment was worded very aggressively and seemed to open a can of worms wherein alot of people jumped and said even more aggressive and mean things. That was ENTIRELY unnecessary.

 

There is a difference between "informing" someone and "putting-down" someone. I feel it the same way as I do with Critiques. There is no need to get nasty, if they were not nasty to you.

 

 

I completely agree with you on this.

I guess I see "confronting" as an aggressive action ("to face in hostility" per the dictionary), and totally different from the more neutral "informing" or "commenting" or even "correcting."

 

I was also trying not to criticize anyone in the Flickr thread too harshly, so I used "confronting" instead of a stronger verb like "harassing" or "attacking" -- I didn't want to seem like I was attacking anyone else, but maybe that made my statements less clear?

 

I think it may be fine if someone comes along and says, "The market price for this doll/item is generally X, you might have more luck in that price range" which seems more like friendly advice, whereas "That price is ridiculous! You're a jerk!" is definitely a confrontation.

 

That said, I still don't know if a seller's thread is always the best place, as it does often seem to leave to a lot of drama and/or hurt feelings. It seems like no matter how nicely worded, a lot of sellers will view any friendly critique of their pricing as a personal attack and then, boom, drama and name-calling. I guess it depends on the community and the particular seller, but I've seen it end badly too many times.

I guess I see "confronting" as an aggressive action ("to face in hostility" per the dictionary), and totally different from the more neutral "informing" or "commenting" or even "correcting."

 

I was also trying not to criticize anyone in the Flickr thread too harshly, so I used "confronting" instead of a stronger verb like "harassing" or "attacking" -- I didn't want to seem like I was attacking anyone else, but maybe that made my statements less clear?

 

I think it may be fine if someone comes along and says, "The market price for this doll/item is generally X, you might have more luck in that price range" which seems more like friendly advice, whereas "That price is ridiculous! You're a jerk!" is definitely a confrontation.

 

That said, I still don't know if a seller's thread is always the best place, as it does often seem to leave to a lot of drama and/or hurt feelings. It seems like no matter how nicely worded, a lot of sellers will view any friendly critique of their pricing as a personal attack and then, boom, drama and name-calling. I guess it depends on the community and the particular seller, but I've seen it end badly too many times.

 

I have to agree with your definition. When I saw the word "confronting" used, the immediate image in my head was of yelling. While I do think that gently informing a new seller once that their price might be well above the current expected value, it's rather pointless to mention it to somebody who has clearly been in the game for quite a while, and could be interpreted as badgering. Also, as others have stated, name calling, for ANY offense, never helps your case and only makes you look immature. If your point can't be made through reason and gentle debate, I can't help but wonder if it's even valid in the first place, and if the other person simply refuses to listen to/accept reason, there's probably no changing their mind, and insulting them is not going to make them more inclined to listen.

imo it's only scalping if people are buying huge, huge quantities of the item in question to resell, so much that others who want to buy it for themselves have their chances at getting the item severely hindered (e.g. buying three-quarters the available concert tickets to sell them and force everyone else to buy from you at a higher price). Of course, that still applies in a lottery of limited-run DDs since scalpers (minimally) reduce the chances of legitimate consumers to land a lottery spot. I'm not sure of how wide spread scalpers are in DDs, but that is a true concern.

However, I'm not sure that people selling vintage DDs from their homes at high prices is wrong. Stupid? Yes. Annoying for those who want to get these dolls? Absolutely. But as said before, they have no obligation to bring you competitive prices; they're not a company with a reputation to keep or significant competition in prices, they're people who owe you no more than you "owe" fellow fans. The best we can do is not buy their merchandise at such high prices, to discourage them from such behavior. Or buy and suck it up, the secind hand market sucks when involving extremely limited quantities of expensive items (like Dollfies).

Scalping is a horrible problem where I live. People scalp toys for a living and re-sell them on ebay or at a collectibles show known as Frank and Sons (sometimes you can find great deals and other stuff).

 

Scalpers buy toys like Hot Wheels, Monster High, Transformers, Star Wars, DC, and Marvel figures. Because of scalpers, I have to go to the stores early when they restock to get the toys I want. I used to have to literally race to the shelves when I had to buy stuff from Toys R Us. As a result many shelves are barren or just filled with the less wanted ones.

 

I think it's an awful practice, but there's no way to control it besides maybe improve distribution. Even with limit 1 per person, they'll just grab more goons to buy stuff.

I understand how many people could be upset about scalpers in hobbies where it's a race to get the item, but I believe that DDs are completely different. DDs are usually sold by lottery, so everyone has an equal chance at winning. It doesn't matter how fast you are, and everybody has the same tools available to them to increase their chances (namely, using multiple accounts).

 

I believe that in this type of hobby, "scalpers" provide an invaluable service, and that is the ability to buy a doll that you didn't win. Sure, she will end up being more expensive, but that's the price you have to pay to get a limited item that you didn't win, and the doll becomes worth that price if customers are willing to pay it. Without scalpers, I wouldn't have my dear Akira, after all.

 

I bet most of you can look back and see a doll that you or a friend did not win but desperately wanted, and so turned to YJA or a similar service to get. Did you curse the person selling it to you, or were you happy that they provided an opportunity you otherwise wouldn't have had? Is it really that unethical?

I understand how many people could be upset about scalpers in hobbies where it's a race to get the item, but I believe that DDs are completely different. DDs are usually sold by lottery, so everyone has an equal chance at winning. It doesn't matter how fast you are, and everybody has the same tools available to them to increase their chances (namely, using multiple accounts).

 

I believe that in this type of hobby, "scalpers" provide an invaluable service, and that is the ability to buy a doll that you didn't win. Sure, she will end up being more expensive, but that's the price you have to pay to get a limited item that you didn't win, and the doll becomes worth that price if customers are willing to pay it. Without scalpers, I wouldn't have my dear Akira, after all.

 

I bet most of you can look back and see a doll that you or a friend did not win but desperately wanted, and so turned to YJA or a similar service to get. Did you curse the person selling it to you, or were you happy that they provided an opportunity you otherwise wouldn't have had? Is it really that unethical?

 

The counterargument to that is that if there weren't flippers, chances are very high that everyone who entered would win right away. Look at how many dolls end up on YJ! right after the Dolpa--sure, it's nice for people who didn't win there to have another chance, but at the same time they now have to pay a markup for something they could have gotten for retail if flipping/scalping didn't exist.

 

Now, I don't think there's any way to get rid of it, it's just part of collecting, but I don't think you can really justify it as HELPING the DD community. The after-market would still be there without scalpers (people need to sell dolls, get tired of them, or don't bond all the time) and all they do is drive up prices and desireability.

Maybe helping is too strong a word, but "chances are very high that everyone who entered would win right away" is too much an assertion the other way. Not to mention that this completely ignores the impact of time.

 

Consider the latecomer. Didn't even hear about DD until literally yesterday. If he fell in love with a long past limited, which is practically 95% of all the sculpts, who else does he have besides the "hordes" of sellers in the secondary market? He had no chance of getting it at release.

 

I wouldn't necessarily call it helping either (they ARE getting paid), I just don't think of them as a scourge necessarily. They balance out the stock availability over time. And we wouldn't shed any tears if they lost money on an unpopular mold...

If you fall in love with an old sculpt and get it on the aftermarket, it's probably not from a scalper/flipper. Flippers buy right away and sell immediately, so they are out of the equation. Scalpers jack up the prices, but it seems like doll prices are pretty consistent. No one's going to say that someone charging say $2,000 for Sasara is scalping. People who DO scalp usually don't sell--dolls are expensive and it seems like most people do a lot of research before taking the plunge into doll ownership. And as we've seen, anyone even hinting at scalping on the US market gets called out really quickly.

 

As someone who has stood on line for limited items and seen people bring literally their entire family (children, parents, etc) to get extra items to flip, I do not think they are a benefit to any collecting industry in any way. Yeah, there's no way to stop them--if someone wants to stick their 5 kids on line to buy limited items, what can we do about it? Heck, even if they just get one and flip. Collecting is inherently an unfair business---sure it would be great if no one bought to flip or sold for crazy profits, if there was enough of everything to go around, etc, but that's never going to happen. And yes, resellers do drive the aftermarket. But honestly, if no one ever flipped/scaled people could still get older dolls as there will always be people leaving the hobby or people tired of the dolls, people who need the money or just didn't bond, etc.

Here it's extremely common to see scalpers. Recently on the last Dolpa, you could see the difference between people who were there to enjoy the hobby and people who's purpose was to just buy some dolls and make a buck out of them. To be honest I think it is very unfair to people who really wanted to buy some of the dolls, but didn't get them at the Dolpa. Me and my friend had a man wanting to sell us one of the bjds for more than 50% of the cost, ridiculous! For me it was just nasty behaviour. My reaction was a bit strong maybe, but my poor friend really wanted that doll. And she had stood there forever to get that doll and still couldn't get it. I'll say probably cause of them damned scalpers...

In another hand I am very surprised that people will register membership and so on, only to deceive people like this. It' amazing!

Of course ( in my opinion ) this is very bad, but then again it's hard to actually stop people from doing this.

One thing I didn't think about previously is that I bet Volks, as well as other doll makers in the same situation, love this. We can argue about someone selling a doll for a 50% markup being fair or not (I don't personally have a problem with it) but one thing it does is make us all aware how good it is to get the doll directly from the manufacturing company at it's original price.

 

This near frenzy about getting the doll directly from the maker before the price goes up in after market sales almost makes sure they sell out of their inventory every time. From the manufacturer's point of view this is fantastic. Never really have to worry about merchandise sitting in warehouses not making any profit for you.

 

I'm not saying Volks or other companies encourage scalping directly but I don't think they mind this side effect it generates.