Fake Dollfie Dreams?!

Where do you draw the bootleg line? Is it bootleg if it isn't officially released by volks? This subject is very grey for me.

 

That is an awesome question! Since Volks wants you to mod your dolls and create your own characters then that makes it difficult to define what constitutes bootlegging... I think it's a matter of (mis)representation.

 

I would think a 'bootleg' would be anything that is represented to be a factory direct product or "official" Volks product sold on the secondary market that was not created wholly by the company.

 

Does that make sense? I am asking seriously... please help if you have thoughts on it!

 

See that's what I figure too. It's really only bootleg if it's claiming to be official Volks goods when it isn't. I feel like the easiest items to bootleg would be the outfits. But if that's the case, why don't we see more bootlegged outfits?

 

Maybe I don't bump into these things because I do all of my shopping between VolksUSA, Volks International, Dollfie World, and YJA?

See that's what I figure too. It's really only bootleg if it's claiming to be official Volks goods when it isn't. I feel like the easiest items to bootleg would be the outfits. But if that's the case, why don't we see more bootlegged outfits?

 

Maybe I don't bump into these things because I do all of my shopping between VolksUSA, Volks International, Dollfie World, and YJA?

I'd agree, the only things that are bootleg are direct knock-offs of Volks products. Also, given the limited nature of most Dollfies, I think all but the newest fans would be wary of, say, a bunch of Mari head sculpts up on eBay.

 

I've bought from a number of 1/3 scale clothing sellers, and I have to say that Volks has their own style, and Azone, Nightfall, Cool Cats, etc, all have their own styles. I know Jun97, I believe has a slip that is basicly the same as the one included with Aoi and Yukino, but in black though, so there are a few "knock-offs" of Volks' clothes. Then again, there are only so many ways you can make a t shirt, shrine maiden outfit, or pair of jeans.

I'd agree, the only things that are bootleg are direct knock-offs of Volks products. Also, given the limited nature of most Dollfies, I think all but the newest fans would be wary of, say, a bunch of Mari head sculpts up on eBay.

 

I've bought from a number of 1/3 scale clothing sellers, and I have to say that Volks has their own style, and Azone, Nightfall, Cool Cats, etc, all have their own styles. I know Jun97, I believe has a slip that is basicly the same as the one included with Aoi and Yukino, but in black though, so there are a few "knock-offs" of Volks' clothes. Then again, there are only so many ways you can make a t shirt, shrine maiden outfit, or pair of jeans.

 

Well said!

Then again, there are only so many ways you can make a t shirt, shrine maiden outfit, or pair of jeans.

 

I agree Galvatim. For regular clothing items it's hard to say that this bra/pantsu set is a copy of a Volks set but if someone comes out with a outfit that looks very similar to Saber's armor set then that's a bit different.

 

As for DD's, I've been tempted to learn how to do "good" face ups and then buy blank heads to work on, bodies, eyes, wigs, and clothes and then sell them on Ebay as a side project. Personally I wouldn't feel this would be "bootleg" DD's but more of a service to provide unique custom girls for those who don't want to go through the work themselves. (just an idea, not sure I'd ever get to it though).

 

This idea would obviously be a problem if I made a copy of an original Saber head and tried to make a fake Saber to sell on Ebay. I think we all fear happening... Spending $1500 on a girl you always wanted only to find out, maybe months later, that she's a fake.

 

**James

I would think a 'bootleg' would be anything that is represented to be a factory direct product or "official" Volks product sold on the secondary market that was not created wholly by the company.

 

I will clarify - I think its pointless to discuss an entire fake DD.

It simply has not happened.

 

For those who are worried about "fakes" it is far more meaningful to discuss recast bootleg heads.

These are direct recasts of the DD originals and being palmed or sold as "direct from volks" such rather than someone's own interpretation or "custom" version. These have not infected YJ or Ebay presently but there have been a few examples on the Chinese auction site Taobao.

 

Someone customizing their own Saber armor is not making a fake -unless they claim its a Volks original.

I own SDs and DDs and the SD bootlegs are copies of SD heads complete with the Volks back-of-the-head-plate.

 

Volks do not have monopoly of anime character licenses or even 60cm vinyl bodies as there there are obitsu/azone/vmf character dolls

The 56-62cm size range covers so many other bjd manufacturers that any other definition would be meaningless.

For instance if another bjd manufacturer created anime style clothing (which 99% of them do) which fits DDs (which many of them do) that is not a rip.

 

Other Asian bjd manufacturers from China, Korea and Japan have a vast range of anime and popular film homage characters without having to mimick DDs.

 

A number of anime characters have been released as DDs and also by other manufacturers - eg The Ikki Tousen character Kanu Unchou has been released as Vmf and Volks dolls. 60cm Ryomou Shimeis have been released by Volks and Beagle. There are at least 3 versions of Doll Nanoha's and Fate from different manufacturers in different sizes. Lets not forget the Vispo Evangelion Dolls which IMHO look better than the Volks Rei and Asuka

There are also a lot of hybrids using Obitsu and Volks parts as well as those seamless silicon bodies from ArteTokio are designed to accommodate DD heads.

Volks for instance have never released a Dollfie from Aria but a lot of DD collector have hunted down the clothes off Akari and rebased it on a DD platform.

http://www.hlj.com/product/BEA07026

So is the Volks DD a rip of the original? Of course not.

 

Unless something is being palmed off as a Volks original and sold as such - I'd be reluctant to class it as bootleg.

 

Even in the case of Character clothing. Unless something is a direct copy of a Volks outfit and being sold as such - doesnt count. Prior to the release of Saber Lily - collectors like Toel Uru and at least one other - customized their own. Anyone can make a school outfit for Rei from Evangelion for instance.

I also agree with what most people have said the definition of a bootleg is, that being something made to look like a Volks ( or other company ) product, being sold as such and not actually being made by them. It can be a fine line on what is and is not considered to be a bootleg when it comes to modding, as some people have stated here. But overall, we have all agreed that bootlegs aren't prevalent yet for an entire DD or many outifts. It only seems that heads have seen any action on that front.

 

My main point was not to loud anyone in particular out, I just wanted to say that the sharing of info that was going on in this thread is what I thought was important, not the fact that noone has seen a faked/bootlegged DD yet or to argue that. Sorry if it sounded like I was saying anything other than that.

 

 

Billy

Yes for a person to make a Aria DD themselves is not a fake or bootleg. And of course that Aria doll is also not a fake or bootleg since they are all original sculpted and manufactured behind whatever the company name. Those that makes a copy of the SD head and sell it or sell something that's not from Volks yet claims it is from Volks are selling bootlegs and fakes.

 

However, there are another side of the story. And I'm going to say 99.9% of Chinese anime character based dolls are none the less not legal. They are not licensed from the IP holder for those characters. If you make a business selling a doll based on an anime character then you have to license them from the respective IP owners like Volks and Azone, etc. all do. But then I guess that might be a bit off topic.

However, there are another side of the story. And I'm going to say 99.9% of Chinese anime character based dolls are none the less not legal. They are not licensed from the IP holder for those characters. If you make a business selling a doll based on an anime character then you have to license them from the respective IP owners like Volks and Azone, etc. all do. But then I guess that might be a bit off topic.

 

I think you unfairly pick on the Chinese manufacturers

Plenty of other manufacturers Japanese and Korean have released dolls heeeeavily based on anime characters without being licensed as such

 

Eg C'mon is he "D" or what?

http://dollsoom.com/eng/shop/item.php?it_id=1292811132

 

And this is where the minefield begins. There is a ton of fan/collector customization of their dolls into their favourite anime or fictional character in the bjd space.

And what about those minimee heads of celebs and anime chrs?

I think this discussion about entire fake DDs is rather pointless.

Correction: I think this discussion about fake DDII bodies is pointless.

 

 

Body aside, there is much bigger profit and return to just creating custom heads or duplicating a head mould of a popular DD rather than copying the whole darn thing.

Ford T-Model and the Industrial Revolution. You are correct. But, please don't assume that Nakitaninja meant "the entire DD" when she said "Dollfie Dreams."

 

The DD body is generic other than bust size (and you can easily pick up the different sized busts).

Or, buy Peach Pai. I would buy the Peach Pai bust myself, but it's a little too big for my taste.

 

The thing that makes a DD "Rin" instead of "Saber" is the head, eyes and wig. Clothes are important as well, but a lot of people dress their DDs in alternate outfits anyway.

I'd be a lot more wary of someone selling off a particular head mould cheap or a recast in resin.

Correction: head (without or without the wig). Well, what's important to me may not be important to another individual as a noticeable trait that a character must has. For example, if I change Saber's wig into another wig, this "Saber" will still be Saber to me. If I change Yuki Morikawa's wig into another wig, she would still me Yuki Morikawa to me. To summarize: people's likes and dislikes differ for each respected person.

 

Most of the copy of SDs are blatant copy of a particular SD head mould rather than a copy of the whole SD.

I agree.

 

The most money really would come from the heads. There's lots of customizers out there and also SQLAB makes resin heads for DD - but I hardly count those as a "bootleg"

Concurred.

 

Oh, I disagree about this discussion being pointless. If you read the thread starter, it was open to all manner of discussion about bootlegging DDs. I love that it has created some discussion about whether or not it is a viable business model for people in different countries. I find it fascinating that it has taken that sort of turn! *^^*

No discussion is pointless. A pointless discussion is when... there was no discussion.

 

I left the topic open ended in the tread starter because the "fake DD equation" obviously has too many variables for any one person to be able to say with any significant authority that it could or could not ever happen. Unless we're living in the creators country of origin, are familiar with production costs, process, selling fees, there's no way to say if it could actually be profitable or not- now, or in the future.

I thank you for making the thread open-ended (very good for discussions), but please be a little more specific next time, .

 

The base models of these dolls sell for $700.00 on eBay and the limiteds sell for over $2,000 then (heads alone sometimes over $500)... however likely or unlikely... you have to allow that it is possible that someone would seek to profits off of them in a secondary market.

It's very possible. We are only talking about vinyl after all. This is not silicon, which requires an upfront investment into steel machines and tools. But, no case of a bootlegged limited DD head (with or without its respective wig) has ever been reported. However, it's a good thing that we are already discussing the likelihood of "bootlegged" Dollfie Dreams (with body or not).

 

Ultimately I like to think that the 'worth' of this thread lies within its proactive nature which creates an awareness/dialogue about bootlegging Dollfie Dreams in our community. I absolutely love hearing what everyone has to say because it's always extremely informative. No discussion is pointless when it contains interesting and relevant information- that is the point of joining and sharing on a forum! ^^

If not for this thread, I wouldn't know that the possibility exists. ^.^

 

I think having open discussions on subjects like this can only help everyone that reads them. I sure didn't know if there were bootlegs of DD's out there or not. It makes sense that it's a possibility tho since most things that are valuable wind up getting bootlegged or faked in one way or another over time.

You can say that again, .

 

My Comment:

Now keep in mind that the discussion is still ongoing. And, all opinions are welcomed. I am very interested to see what everyone would post. Keep it going, folks!

 

-Halcyon

Edited April 8, 2011 by Guest

I think you unfairly pick on the Chinese manufacturers

Plenty of other manufacturers Japanese and Korean have released dolls heeeeavily based on anime characters without being licensed as such

 

True... Plenty of Korean ones too. I'm not picking on Chinese manufacturers, I'm only commenting on the ones I know enough of. I don't speak Korean and so I don't think I can know in depth enough to comment on it. I do see plenty of Korean places that sell dolls but that's just some quick glance from a very occasional outsider. And with that I am not 100% sure if there are any that might have licensed character or not. As for unlicensed Japanese ones, sure they are not legal for as long as they are unlicensed. Volks and Azone and a few bigger companies all licenses their character dolls properly. For smaller sellers, I don't know if the are properly licensed or not. But in figures industry for example, you can apply to sell your garage kit at events for nearly nothing for as long as you only produce in small quantities. Those are not unlicensed, those are properly licensed (Even though didn't cost the seller much. Okay it's not really a license but rather an agreement that IP holder allow this to happen at such event.) I'm not sure if the doll sellers at Dolpa or other doll events in Japan has similar agreements. But if they have such agreements like those for figures, then they are perfectly legal to sell dolls that look like some anime character at the events. But obviously that couldn't have applied to any Chinese or Korean businesses. And for anyone Japanese maker included to sell regularly without a properly license is also technically not legal.

Correction: head (without or without the wig). Well, what's important to me may not be important to another individual as a noticeable trait that a character must has. For example, if I change Saber's wig into another wig, this "Saber" will still be Saber to me. If I change Yuki Morikawa's wig into another wig, she would still me Yuki Morikawa to me. To summarize: people's likes and dislikes differ for each respected person.

 

What I was refering to was that other than Head, Eyes and Wig the physical bits of a Saber DD and Rin DD are identical.

I know that people regard Saber as Saber etc even with a wig change. However when purchasing a DD the unique bits are the Head, Eyes and Wig. (Setting their outfit to one side).

In various DDs the ease of duplicating the Head, Eyes and Wig depends on how complicated each of those components are eg: Saber's wig with the curl is pretty unique but while there are plenty of straight long black hair wigs which could sub in for Yuki's.

The only exception to that is the Kanu Unchou DDDy as it is the only tan-skinned DD and therefore more unique than the others in that respect (and also a nightmare if you need any parts replacement)

I know that people regard Saber as Saber etc even with a wig change. However when purchasing a DD the unique bits are the Head, Eyes and Wig. (Setting their outfit to one side).

I will have to agree with you. The unique parts are the head (including eyes) and wig. The body... well, it's only a DDII body.

 

In various DDs the ease of duplicating the Head, Eyes and Wig depends on how complicated each of those components are eg: Saber's wig with the curl is pretty unique but while there are plenty of straight long black hair wigs which could sub in for Yuki's.

The only exception to that is the Kanu Unchou DDDy as it is the only tan-skinned DD and therefore more unique than the others in that respect (and also a nightmare if you need any parts replacement)

Saber's wig... is definitely going to be very very hard to copy. Whoever decides to copy it... I feel sorry for that person.

As for unlicensed Japanese ones, sure they are not legal for as long as they are unlicensed. Volks and Azone and a few bigger companies all licenses their character dolls properly. For smaller sellers, I don't know if the are properly licensed or not. But in figures industry for example, you can apply to sell your garage kit at events for nearly nothing for as long as you only produce in small quantities. Those are not unlicensed, those are properly licensed (Even though didn't cost the seller much. Okay it's not really a license but rather an agreement that IP holder allow this to happen at such event.) I'm not sure if the doll sellers at Dolpa or other doll events in Japan has similar agreements. But if they have such agreements like those for figures, then they are perfectly legal to sell dolls that look like some anime character at the events. But obviously that couldn't have applied to any Chinese or Korean businesses. And for anyone Japanese maker included to sell regularly without a properly license is also technically not legal.

 

This answer is OT to this thread but in answer I note 2 points about licensing/copyright and the acquisition of DDs which may be worth spinning another thread outfor.

 

Copy/Homage/FairUse etc.

At which point is a Doll character a "copy" or a "homage" or a Doll-like doujin? I linked you to the Soom Idealian Dhampir which generated a massive amount of discussion as it is clearly made to look like "D" of VH:D but isnt stated to be him. There are many Dolls which are "similar" to certain characters but not explicity stated.

Those of us who watch Black Butler know who this is ya?

http://ringdoll.com/product/RingDoll/Judges.html

Should be pretty clear cut - but remember the anime/manga industry is deliberately murky on copyright itself since it tolerates doujin.

 

 

With some Volks DDs we have seen restricted licenses.

For example the K-On Dollfies and Touhou DDs were subject to restricted sales in Japan only.

In the case of the K-On DDs, neither Yui or Mio were available for International Lottery or sale from Volks USA. So the only way for non-residents to get their hands on them were either YJ resale, Deputy services or a local intermediary.

The Touhou DDS' were only available for preorder or shipment in Japan.

By acquiring one of those outside have we violated the will of the original licensor?

By acquiring one of those outside have we violated the will of the original licensor?

 

First of all Volks did not violate their license since they did not release the item outside of Japan. Secondly it is perfectly legal for any one outside of country to buy item to be exported outside of the country for as long as it not an item that's prohibited from being exported from that country. And last I checked vinyl dolls are not on the prohibited export list of Japan . So all of that are all legally sound. No one has violated any laws internationally or of any country.

 

As to will of the license holder or IP holder, my stand is that I do not put words into anyone's mouth. If the license holder does not wish the item to be exported outside of Japan, then they need to come out and say it out loud and clear themselves. I don't guess, I don't put word into anyone's mouth and I don't take any word from anyone else but the actual license holder. And even then, it will only be my good will towards the license holder not to try to bring it outside of the country. To me, for as long as I do not violate any laws, it is a simple matter of international trading.

 

Also in the case of K-ON for example, it is not like they don't want K-ON to go outside of Japan. It's a matter of they want to still grant exclusive merchandise rights to someone. So you holding out until you find the best value first. If they let Volks to release K-ON dolls to say North America, then you no longer can grant any company in North America exclusive merchandise right and that right might worth significant value more than the amount of K-ON dolls Volks will sell. So in that case, it's honestly perfectly fine that someone exported through proxy services. The K-ON license holders doesn't lose the exclusive merchandise right, and you get whatever you want. No one really loses here.

As to will of the license holder or IP holder, my stand is that I do not put words into anyone's mouth. If the license holder does not wish the item to be exported outside of Japan, then they need to come out and say it out loud and clear themselves. I don't guess, I don't put word into anyone's mouth and I don't take any word from anyone else but the actual license holder. .

 

You dont have to "guess"

I will in fact pull the words out of the Touhou creator Zun's mouth in this case.

The license holder clearly wished for those to be sold locally in Japan otherwise Zun would have allowed Volks overseas sales. Its pretty clear from the fact that they were not for international release. And from his guidelines for releases for any merchandise.

http://www.gensokyo.org/archives/1682

and specifically to foreigners

http://www.japanator.com/touhou-creator-lays-down-the-law-for-merchandising-rights-18587.phtml

http://fallingcirno.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/zuns-revised-guidelines-for-2011/

 

Also in the case of K-ON for example, it is not like they don't want K-ON to go outside of Japan. It's a matter of they want to still grant exclusive merchandise rights to someone. So you holding out until you find the best value first. If they let Volks to release K-ON dolls to say North America, then you no longer can grant any company in North America exclusive merchandise right and that right might worth significant value more than the amount of K-ON dolls Volks will sell. So in that case, it's honestly perfectly fine that someone exported through proxy services. The K-ON license holders doesn't lose the exclusive merchandise right, and you get whatever you want. No one really loses here.

 

Sorry that makes no sense given where other K-On merchandise has gone. Bandai has allowed K-On figures to Good Smile, Freeing, Alter, Wave, Clayz etc with no restrictions on any of those being sold overseas. Exclusivity is well and truly gone.

 

I am not questioning the legality of subsequent export of what may have started as an in-country exclusive product.

So it says company needs permissions. Volks has permissions I'm sure. So tell me where exactly is there a line says "I, ZUN, do not want to see a single Touhou item outside of Japan."? Sure he probably has a line says he does not allow any commercial business from selling their merchandise outside of Japan. But that's exactly what Volks did. They did not sell any Touhou item outside of Japan. The rest are personal services by proxy buying services. They are not anywhere included in this. They are not making/producing/distributing items, they are not even in the sales channel really. They are personal services, they buy what you ask them to buy and send where you want them to send. So all I can see is "putting word into someone's mouth" not "pulling the words out ZUN's mouth". If he does not want item outside of Japan then in his license agreement to all the commercial company he should have a line goes "If I see a single item outside Japan then your license is revoked, you are no longer allow to produce any more Touhou based items." Did he do that? Nope. Otherwise GSC won't be able to produce any more Touhou items for sure. Yes he never granted foreigners' involvement in Touhou, I know that. But keep in mind, making, creating, Touhou item has nothing to do with Touhou item itself. That's circulation of the item after it has been created, made, and even sold. But unless he says in a simple statement: "All none Japanese people, please do not try to own any Touhou item. If you own any please throw them away." That's not saying outsiders should not own Touhou items. Besides like I said even then I'd only abide by law, so unless he can get that into Japan's export restrictions list, there's nothing preventing me exporting one legally whether he likes it or not. If he really want to make sure he can always put the line I way above into his license agreement with the commercial entities. Anyway I don't see ZUN as hating foreigners. He simply does not want to deal with foreigners that's all because of all the logistics. I mean if you look at USA even today, I see tons of company in USA that will not ship to Canada. Yes they will not sell or ship to Canada for one reason or another. But I'm sure they don't hate Canadians, they just don't want to deal with the hassle. And there are a LOT of hassles in licensing if you want to go outside Japan.

 

As for K-ON. Good Smile Company, Alter, Wave, Clayz, they all only manufacturer for and distribute in Japan. That IS the restriction. Sure you see secondary channel distributions that are selling it internationally. But that's not primary distribution channel. Keep in mind, Volks Japan is the manufacturer and the distributor here. Volks USA (a entirely different company in USA) will not have a license to produce or distribute K-ON merchandises. Good Smile Company, Alter, Wave, Clayz are all Japanese company obtained their licenses in Japan. Volks USA has to obtain their license in USA. And K-ON anime is only licensed here in USA by Bandai Entertainment. But that's not even a product yet. And so naturally you can expect no one here in USA has a license to produce K-ON merchandise, Volks USA won't be able to get a license because no one will want to have merchandise released before the Anime is actually released in North America. And besides, maybe Bandai wants to have the exclusive right in North America for merchandises and so no additional right will be granted to companies like Volks USA even if they wanted to.

 

So keep in mind Volks USA is not releasing a lot of Dolls that Japan has is because manufacturing/distributing right is different from selling. You can sell an item doesn't mean you can manufacturer and/or distribute an item. Volks USA cannot manufacturer and/or distribute Touhou and/or K-ON items here. That's why you see those dolls not available at Volks USA. Volks in Japan cannot distribute Touhou dolls outside of Japan and that's why they don't allow any shipment outside of Japan. Once they shipped inside the Japan, there's nothing else limiting anyone from doing whatever to it now and so that's why you can get those dolls outside via proxies. Simple as that.

Once again you miss the point.

My question related to intent of the licensor to have sales within Japan. That is proved by the very nature of license granted.

 

And the quote from the Touhou creator not only relates to permission for commercial goods but also if you read carefully - also their method of distribution.

 

Your reply focussed on the LEGALITY of an export on the secondary market. That really has nothing to do the intent of the original license holder.

 

Settting aside which side of the road we drive on for a minute. Let me use an example. Say we are Ferrari and we release a limited edition model and earmark 10 for UK and 100 for the US market. No-one can legally stop someone who buys one of those in UK from legally re-exporting to the US.

You are 100% correct when you say its LEGAL. Sure it is! I agree!

 

Does it go against the outcome the manufacturer/licensor intended originally? Sure it does! If you lived in UK and you see your country allocation bought and re-exported right back out - would it annoy you?

Not just DDs but any popular limited edition item subject to rationning by geographical license can always find its way to those with the deepest pockets.

I collect fine wine for example and I know that NZ's allocation of some of the best prized Bordeaux and Burgundies goes straight out to rich buyers in Asia every year who will pay more for the wine.

 

Look at how some companies desperately try to get purchasers of some LE items to agree never to sell them again. Those contracts have proven ridiculously hard to enforce since the legal owner has every right to sell.

 

"If I see a single item outside Japan then your license is revoked, you are no longer allow to produce any more Touhou based items." Did he do that? Nope. Otherwise GSC won't be able to produce any more Touhou items for sure. Yes he never granted foreigners' involvement in Touhou, I know that. .

 

No one who agrees to a license a product would agree to such a clause.

 

" But keep in mind, making, creating, Touhou item has nothing to do with Touhou item itself. That's circulation of the item after it has been created, made, and even sold. But unless he says in a simple statement: "All none Japanese people, please do not try to own any Touhou item. If you own any please throw them away."

 

And if he did would we care? Would you do it? The only pressure on you is moral and not legal.

 

That's why you see those dolls not available at Volks USA. Volks in Japan cannot distribute Touhou dolls outside of Japan and that's why they don't allow any shipment outside of Japan. Once they shipped inside the Japan, there's nothing else limiting anyone from doing whatever to it now and so that's why you can get those dolls outside via proxies. Simple as that.

 

We know this.

I arrive back at my original question. This not about legality. It is about the intent of the licensor to have that item distributed only within a country.

 

Pulling this back onto the subject of "fake DDs"

If for example you produced a kit set for an popular anime/doujin character to be made it a DD - say a Rider from Fate/Stay and you sold that kit set on Ebay/YJ or an online shop. So for example you'd sell a Rider head, wig, blindfold, outfit and possible the sharp stabby stakes and chains and tell buyers to fit that onto a DDII L-Bust or DDDy body.

Clearly its not a Volks product. Now imagine if it were wonderfully made and very successful to fan boys or girls who wanted to finish off their Fate/Stay collection with a Rider. (Which Volks have yet to make)

 

For example say I am a newbie DD collector. I go to a DD meet or anime convention and see 2 or 3 of these Riders and think "Wow! I need to buy one of these Volks Riders!"

Clearly these kit sets will not be licensed.

 

Earlier in the thread we discussed a "fake" as a purported direct rip of a Volks character and I am pretty comfortable with that definition.

But, is there a point where a unlicensed kit set blurs that boundary for you?

Once again you miss the point.

My question related to intent of the licensor to have sales within Japan. That is proved by the very nature of license granted.

 

Yes the license is intended to have production within Japan. But why is not spelled out. Is it to encourage the creation process inside Japan? Is it related to keep the economics in Japan? Maybe it is just because they don't have the capability to license outside Japan properly. And maybe there are a lot of other reasons. Doesn't matter though. For whoever purchased a Touhou doll for example, 100% of the license is observed. The production is for Japan only and was sold and distributed in Japan. Nothing wrong here, no one has violated any license hold's will here. I'm precisely trying to say that just because something is only licensed to be made/sold in Japan, you don't have to automatically say they don't want the item to move outside Japan. A license to ensure something is made/sold in Japan has nothing to do with if the license holder like the item to go outside of Japan or not.

 

And use your Ferrari example. Ferrari does set a limit of how many number of cars goes to where. However, trust me on this, just because one country gets a quota of 3, it doesn't mean Ferrari doesn't want 4th, 5th, 6th or whatever number goes to that country through trading. Yes they like their cars to be balanced around the world. But they've never said that they denounce all cross country trading. So let's not put words into someone's mouth. And for others getting annoyed. Well let's put it this way, they are not the one who owns it and kept it inside UK. If they are all so annoyed, they can all try to keep it inside the country by paying the price. Or they can always try to force a bill through so that export of such vehicle is not allowed. Since that's not happening, it simply means majority are not annoyed of that. Only those few enthusiasts are there putting the vocal (not action) behind it. And that's precisely my point. So come back to Touhou. ZUN has never said out loud "I don't want foreigners to get their hand on Touhou items". The only thing said is that we want production and distribution to be in Japan. And those two line are very very different.

 

I collect fine wine for example and I know that NZ's allocation of some of the best prized Bordeaux and Burgundies goes straight out to rich buyers in Asia every year who will pay more for the wine.

 

Heh true. Although in this market one has to be content that rich buyers willing to pay more always gets their share one way or another.

 

And if he did would we care? Would you do it? The only pressure on you is moral and not legal.

 

For Touhou I'd say very possibly. Honestly I've never thought he's xenophobic. He feels just like many others who prefer to deal with a surrounding that is simple to deal with and that he's familiar with. And we probably all have a bit of that in ourselves. And to keep the creation processing inside his own country is nothing new. But I don't think he has any hatred for foreigners. And that's why I would still get my hand on Touhou merchandise even if it's for release inside Japan only.

 

Pulling this back onto the subject of "fake DDs"

If for example you produced a kit set for an popular anime/doujin character to be made it a DD - say a Rider from Fate/Stay and you sold that kit set on Ebay/YJ or an online shop. So for example you'd sell a Rider head, wig, blindfold, outfit and possible the sharp stabby stakes and chains and tell buyers to fit that onto a DDII L-Bust or DDDy body.

 

Clearly its not a Volks product. Now imagine if it were wonderfully made and very successful to fan boys or girls who wanted to finish off their Fate/Stay collection with a Rider. (Which Volks have yet to make)

 

For example say I am a newbie DD collector. I go to a DD meet or anime convention and see 2 or 3 of these Riders and think "Wow! I need to buy one of these Volks Riders!"

Clearly these kit sets will not be licensed.

 

Earlier in the thread we discussed a "fake" as a purported direct rip of a Volks character and I am pretty comfortable with that definition.

But, is there a point where a unlicensed kit set blurs that boundary for you?

 

Well for me, as long as seller doesn't try to mask this as a Volks' product. And instead simply sell the kit has a modification to Volks' DD. Then that's an unlicensed production not a fake. That's not a rip to Volks' dolls since it's 100% their own original creation. There's nothing wrong with modifications, you have after market car parts for example. So things like those silicon busts are perfectly fine 3rd party modification parts for Volks DD. However, in this case, what's potentially being infringed upon is Rider's character design. Just like that Korean site is potentially infringing on Vampire Hunter D's character design. Would I buy it from such seller? Well probably no. Because I know it can't possibly be legal. However, if they are only selling at a Japanese doll show then I might. And that's because there might be consent from all the IP holders that they allow this level of doujin creations with small production numbers at the event just like other hobby shows.

Just have to say, I think it is incredibly awesome that you two got through all that to agree and start a new facet of the discussion that I find fascinating. I was worried that you were both going to start fighting- not because of who you are but because that tends to happen on forums ALL THE TIME. My hat is off to both of you for facilitating something wonderful!

 

I do want to add that usually things are not distributed as widely because it comes down to a matter of $$$ or not making enough $$$. We deal with this sort of crap all the time and so much cool stuff gets canned because a company doesn't believe it will be profitable and retail to a large enough audience. I'd like to point out, however, the big company is usually correct- at least for their purposes.

 

Earlier in the thread we discussed a "fake" as a purported direct rip of a Volks character and I am pretty comfortable with that definition.

But, is there a point where a unlicensed kit set blurs that boundary for you?

 

That would really entail a level of quality I haven't seen in the secondary market. I totally think it is coming though... especially with issues of staining and outfits being problematic. I think if you could mass produce a non-staining "Saber Maid" costume to the same Volks quality at a slightly reduced price... then you'd make a mint.

 

The reason I don't buy with a lot of company outside Volks for resin or DD is that the level of quality is good but just not as good and for the price... well, I'll pay a few bucks more and use Volks USA.

 

As for a moral question, well, I think when people start responding to shifts in the market then it forces a company to adapt and create a superior product as a result. I'm not saying I'd endorse people ripping us off but if you knew it was NOT a Volks product but it looked just as good, had no staining issues and was the character you'd been waiting years to buy AND it was cheaper.... would you buy it? Just sayin'....

Wow doesn't advertise as Volks', none staining, looks just as good. I'll be very tempted even without the lower in price involved. I mean I own two sets of Saber Maid outfits. That staining issue really really annoys me. (I just got recently stained big time by that maid outfit again from my old Saber Mail outfit.) I'm personally really mild in terms of copying of clothing designs. Not to mention that maid outfit really is not all that original. So if someone make a product like that, it's hard for me to say no. But if they claim that's Volks or even hint that way, I'd claim foul all over them heh.

As for a moral question, well, I think when people start responding to shifts in the market then it forces a company to adapt and create a superior product as a result. I'm not saying I'd endorse people ripping us off but if you knew it was NOT a Volks product but it looked just as good, had no staining issues and was the character you'd been waiting years to buy AND it was cheaper.... would you buy it? Just sayin'....

 

If, say, Azone made a 1/3 scale Shana, I'd buy one in a second... Now if you mean someone made a 'high quality' bootleg 1/3 Shana, no, probably not! Then again, if you gave me the choice of watching Shana fansubs or buying the legit DVDs, I'd buy the DVDs. So I might be an odd one... I honestly can't see an unlicensed 1/3 scale doll going for much cheaper than Volks, unless the quality is awful...

That would really entail a level of quality I haven't seen in the secondary market. I totally think it is coming though... especially with issues of staining and outfits being problematic. I think if you could mass produce a non-staining "Saber Maid" costume to the same Volks quality at a slightly reduced price... then you'd make a mint.

 

If you really want a non-staining maid style dress because its lined I recommend you buy from Milky Ange.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/milky-ange/139631889391418?sk=info

Amazon Japan Store

http://astore.amazon.co.jp/attrait81-22?_encoding=UTF8&node=11

 

And no they are not cheaper than Volks - actually probably more expensive -but their clothes are fully lined and really well finished.

If you really want a non-staining maid style dress because its lined I recommend you buy from Milky Ange.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/milky-ange/139631889391418?sk=info

Amazon Japan Store

http://astore.amazon.co.jp/attrait81-22?_encoding=UTF8&node=11

 

And no they are not cheaper than Volks - actually probably more expensive -but their clothes are fully lined and really well finished.

 

#$@%@#$%@#$%@#$%#$%@#$%#$%!!!!!

 

also

 

!!!!!

 

Those are gorgeous. Thank you for the link! So you order the human item in a doll size? Very interesting. I'm afraid I am too old to be a gothic lolita myself but my girls can live the dream.

If you really want a non-staining maid style dress because its lined I recommend you buy from Milky Ange.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/milky-ange/139631889391418?sk=info

Amazon Japan Store

http://astore.amazon.co.jp/attrait81-22?_encoding=UTF8&node=11

 

And no they are not cheaper than Volks - actually probably more expensive -but their clothes are fully lined and really well finished.

Arrex, would you mind posting this in the vendor section? I would like an easier way to access it. And, thank you very much for sharing!

 

-Halcyon

I bump up this post because I just saw this announcement from Volks:

http://www.volks.co.jp/page.jsp?id=71363&version=jp#en

 

Bootleg DD??°_°