The Morals Associated with Lotteries

  Nekopon said:

  shinegamix said:

jr toys house there is evil

 

Jr toys is owned by a close friend's cousin. They won't give us a discount either. Haha. /off-topic

 

*chuckles*

In German we say "Bei Geld hört die Freundschaft auf", which very roughly translates to "As soon as money is involved, a friendship usually ends"

 

I think Dollfie World is sometimes a bit expensive too, but I guess they somehow need to cut their losses (i.e. the money they had to put into getting this items and mantaining a shop) before they can make a profit of something.

A scalper though usually got the item through a normal release and had no extra stuff to pay, so anything more they ask from the normal price is profit.

 

(and off with the OT now, promised )

hmm... morals huh... I've never actually sat down to think about that

 

I don't win things. Seriously know that my luck is useless and I do not win things 99% of the time. But then it somehow overlaps with a weird idea that if I enter and do not win this damn expensive item - it just wasn't meant to be.

 

So for dolls - only enter once myself on da Volks site and call it a day

but for outfits? I'll enter everything possible and convince anyone can (short list, just 1 person to drag into this madness) to enter with me to up the chances! Somehow that moral pendulum swings free when 'cheaper' things are concerned. Which so far only happened twice ... and guess what - i lost, my friend won the outfit for me

About it being unfair that the USA gets two lottery shots, I just want to point out that there are many international folks using proxies to get into Volks USA's lotteries and click war events. Lets not kid ourselves that its a USA thing only anymore. Plenty of international people are cirbleepventing the rules concerning this.

 

As far as morals, there are rule followers and rule breakers in every aspect of this hobby. I personally will only enter once if I ever did lottery for a doll, but to me its the fun of fate and luck coming together.

 

Little OT but:

I also feel that those who won should feel free to rejoice on the forum. Its a happy moment for them. If others are too sensitive about losing out, then they should grow a thicker skin, or go about acquiring the doll in after market. Unfortunately its become an expensive hobby, but that does not give folks the right to complain just because they can't afford it. I can't afford limiteds, so I am happy to go about building dolls.

For me its knowing your limitations and finding other ways to still enjoy. Either way Volks is cranking out tons of great girls, by law of averages one will make it into your home at some point!

 

Just my two cents

The fair thing, I think, would be for all dolls to be pre-order... then Volks could make exactly as many as demand requires. Sadly that's not their business model.

 

I will enter multiple times for a doll that I really, really want- but if I win extras I'll sell at a break-even price to a fellow collector. This is a fun hobby for me and I don't want to stress out or try to turn it into a source of income, then it becomes just another job. And I don't mind losing so much because there's this great community here for sharing DD photos and I can enjoy everyone else's wins vicariously

  chibinezumi said:

About it being unfair that the USA gets two lottery shots, I just want to point out that there are many international folks using proxies to get into Volks USA's lotteries and click war events. Lets not kid ourselves that its a USA thing only anymore. Plenty of international people are cirbleepventing the rules concerning this.

 

Yep, this is exactly right. Just as we in the US enter the International Lotteries for stuff, so too do people overseas entering the US lotteries. KL and WLD do their best to make sure they are selling only to US addresses like they're supposed to but who's to say a person here doesn't try for a doll for a friend that missed out on their lottery chances overseas?

 

  Quote

As far as morals, there are rule followers and rule breakers in every aspect of this hobby. I personally will only enter once if I ever did lottery for a doll, but to me its the fun of fate and luck coming together.

 

Agreed. When it comes to lotteries for DD's, I've never entered for myself. I've entered for friends tho and I've lost. As for clothing, I always enter for things first thru KL and if I lose, I go to the click wars. If I lose then, I lose. But I've gotten clothing for friends before and they have gotten clothes for me before too.

 

  Quote

I also feel that those who won should feel free to rejoice on the forum. Its a happy moment for them. If others are too sensitive about losing out, then they should grow a thicker skin, or go about acquiring the doll in after market. Unfortunately its become an expensive hobby, but that does not give folks the right to complain just because they can't afford it. I can't afford limiteds, so I am happy to go about building dolls.

 

I totally agree. You won a girl that you wanted badly and are happy about it, why not share that joy with friends and like minded people? If I go in for a clothing set I really wanted and I lost it, that's fate or bad luck on my part and I move on. If others got the outfit I was after, more power to them, I eagerly await seeing pics of their girls wearing it. There's no reason to be upset or pissed at others because I lost out. That's just being a spoil sport. Yes, I've whined about losing out before but I never thought badly of others for winning what I wanted.

 

I've seen that before in other hobbies I've been in.... entitlement issues. Any hobby that's got as much money involved as this one causes it. And as stated above, just because you can't afford something dosen't make it right to be mad at others. But in the case of having the money and just losing out in a lottery, luck just wasn't on your side. As the old saying goes, "Poo Poo Occurs".

 

 

 

Billy

I don't mind entering lotteries for my friends (actual friends and online contacts) I've never really entered for a doll that I wanted for myself. That's because they're always announced when I'm running low on funds! My best bet is to pre-order dolls since I'm terrible at click wars too.

 

  Chise said:

I don't win things. Seriously know that my luck is useless and I do not win things 99% of the time. But then it somehow overlaps with a weird idea that if I enter and do not win this damn expensive item - it just wasn't meant to be.

You and I are both unlucky, Chise. I haven't won the lottery yet with my entries for friends. I did have a short streak with Kerbey Lane but that didn't last. They weren't able to acquire any items from the October Collection for me.

Thank you for this thread.

 

I have always thought that Volks USA, Kerbey Lane and We Love Dolls works as separate entities and US people have more options to get their DD's than people living outside the US. It's great to hear that things aren't really like that and we all have more equal possibilities to participate in lotteries.

 

What interests me is Volks Korea. They do seem to have better stock sometimes and even limited DD's after all the other stores have sold out. Has anyone ever tried to purchase via them?

 

I'm somewhat derailing this thread by asking this but do Volks still have licensing issues with some countries? I remember once trying to order MDD Mayu Tanaka from Volks web store (back in 2007 I think) and while the doll was in stock and everything seemed to be okay, I still couldn't buy the doll I wanted. According to Volks this was due to licensing reasons (Kimi ga Nozomu Eien isn't licensed in the country where I live). Tying this with lottery ethics, I do think that almost everyone here would agree that using proxy (or other means to get doll that you can't purchase) is completely acceptable?

  Nekopon said:

  shinegamix said:

jr toys house there is evil

 

Jr toys is owned by a close friend's cousin. They won't give us a discount either. Haha. /off-topic

 

They don't do discounts, and they charge a 5% "service fee" if you use a credit card in their physical store.

Hubby observed several HK-based scalpers (not just JR Toys) at work in the Tenshi-no-Sumika shop line at DP27 last May. Talk about abusing the system >__>"

lets go burn them down man(crazy talk dun pay attention)

-multiple accounts....well for me, I think 1 account is enough fate shall decide whether you're goin to have this doll or not xD and for 1 lottery, isn't in a great thrill? xD 50% happy and hoping you get her and 50% losing and finding ways for her xD

 

-entering for others in the lottery, I don't mind that at all since I prefer to help

 

-winning 2 dolls, then I would ask who ever wants the other one to make others dreams come true

How could these scalpers always get what we want

My answer is by multiple entries

 

What are yours?

If I HAVE to have a doll, I will enter multiple times. But I would sell any extras here on the forums at retail, because I'm not out to make money, I just want my doll!

My two cents: Just because someone else does something wrong, doing the same thing yourself doesn't make it right.

  Nekopon said:

My two cents: Just because someone else does something wrong, doing the same thing yourself doesn't make it right.

 

Agreed and my opinion is also that just because others do it doesn't make it a reasonable excuse to justify doing it even if it is wrong.

 

People have made fun of me before for standing up for what I believed in because it was pointless. But at the end of the day, I felt better about myself.

 

We each have to make our own choices and yes, those choices affect others in the community. Does it matter? Only we can decide that for ourselves, I suppose.

  Nekopon said:

My two cents: Just because someone else does something wrong, doing the same thing yourself doesn't make it right.

 

Agreed. I see people complaining about the scalpers doing multiple entries, but then admitting they do multiple entries themselves. Even if you do sell the dolls yourself at retail or near retail price, if you win more than 1 doll, you are still taking it away from someone else who wanted it. Not everyone in the DD hobby looks at this site or Figure.FM or (insert other place people might sell the extra doll), so wouldn't necessarily see that they have the chance to buy a doll after losing their one entry.

 

Also, I am personally of the opinion that Volks isn't making enough of these dolls for the demand anyway. Even if every single doll was bought by a person who wanted to keep it, not a scalper, there would *still* be people wanting the dolls. And if people who weren't lucky to get them wanted them enough, they might be willing to pay a premium. Therefore, one of the people who originally wanted the doll and got it might sell it because they decide they want the money more. Is that person a scalper? Not really. They're just going with the economics of supply and demand.

 

As the Saber pre-order fiasco proved, Volks can make a lot more of one particular doll than they do. It just takes more time. They're just being unwilling to do so. Why? They want to keep DDs seen as a luxury, hard to get product. Japan LOVES their limited items. So many things in Japan are made to a small number or only made for a limited time (you guys would be surprised at how many foods are available for only a few weeks max or maybe a store literally open for only a day). Volks is a Japanese store, so...

 

Also, keep in mind that dolls are wants. Not needs. You don't need a doll to live. If people were scalping on food and water after some disaster, yeah. You could argue morals. I don't think optional things in our lives have anything to do with morals. It's frustrating, sure. But morals is a strong word. Probably the wrong word to use in this case.

I honestly just don't care. I'll take advantage of every chance I can get to win a doll, and I haven't claimed two, but have had plenty of chances to. I honestly would too if I had a reason for it. I'm too greedy~ :D I've also entered for friends and helped them out, so obviously this doesn't bother me.

 

I can be honest and say, I always sell for what the current market price is. I don't care what I paid anymore, because it is all about what the actual market price is instead. So, if I won a doll, don't like the doll, then I'll sell it for more. This includes if I won a second one, then yes, I would sell for more. I only use funds I make in the hobby on the hobby these days so I want to take every penny I can take.

 

Maybe after being in doll-related hobbies for 6 years, plus having the fact I generally buy secondhand...buying a scalpers price has stopped really affecting me, so let them get as many as they can. I scalp, and thus I don't see it fit to get upset about scalping (We are disregarding stupidly high prices like $4000 for Original Saber XD). Talk about being a hypocrite.

 

  DJStarstryker said:

Japan LOVES their limited items. So many things in Japan are made to a small number or only made for a limited time (you guys would be surprised at how many foods are available for only a few weeks max or maybe a store literally open for only a day). Volks is a Japanese store, so...

 

Japanese hobbyists are on a regular basis an entirely different level of hobbyists from most cultures. I feel that a lot of people seem to forget that Volks is Japanese and thus their way of marketing is done to fit the Japanese hobbyists. They like limited, hard to get items. OOAK items are always treated as holy grails. That's just how it is.

 

And on another note:

And no matter how much we whine and complain that "there aren't enough" in fact there are. Volks makes their money for each doll. So, what Volks feels is enough is actually enough. It isn't for us to choose how limited the limited edition item is, and honestly I like this hobby cause I dig limited, hard to get things. I would have long ago grown bored if I got every doll on my wishlist. Thrill of the hunt, you know? Also, sorry that was a tiny bit off topic. xD

Volks is EXTREMELY smart in their marketing skills. They know that releasing limiteds will keep increasing demand for the supply- a lot of hobbyists also can see dolls as investments. They may purchase a doll they don't need to sell for a higher price down the road not just because they can, but because it may help fund a purchase they really want.

 

TY Beanie Babies used to have a similar marketing concept. They would release them and retire them after shipping a select number to stores. I remember being 8-9 years old and running around to second hand markets trying to get them all back before the internet. I spent more money than I'd like to say obtaining some of the hardest to find. ... But then TY got greedy. They thought that people wanted the stuffed animals so they started to re-release them. Value went down as markets were flooded with them. Collectors got chased out because their stuffed animals they were holding onto as investments were worthless.

 

...And now look at it. People can barely give them away for free these days- even the rarest ones. They become toys instead of collectibles which I feel they are first and foremost collectibles no matter if you treat them more like toys or prized figurines.

 

Yes, there are people in the hobby who don't care about the characters and want just the dolls (I imagine this is REALLY rare in Japan). I love the thrill of the chase to get my grails and their fullsets- and as has been said, the Japanese Hobbyist does too. There's some pride and prestige associated with certain dolls in the hobby- people feel PROUD to have them. If they were all basic... well, then, why would people who collect bother with them? They'd take away the collectibles.

 

If you don't believe me... look at Volks's standard dolls. While a lot of people start out with them and some people really do like them, they're no where near as popular as these limited girls. That's because even if you get frustrated and heartbroken about losing, it's so much fun to try to get the doll you're after. I know that when I got Mariko I squealed and jumped up and down because I was so happy. If she was basic, it would have been an "eh... I could get this anytime" type of purchase and I probably wouldn't bother.

 

TLDR; Volks makes sure there is always interest in their dolls by making them limited. People invest money in them because they know they can get back what they paid or more- Volks doesn't care if you resell it. They make their money, but you have an incentive to buy AND make a profit if you resell which makes the items more alluring, I have to say.

I definitely agree with the views on Volks' marketing stratagies from above users who posted here, but when I see a limited sell for twice the retail value, I can't help but wonder if Volks should've met more demand. Regardless, we always crawl back for more.

It's just like what happened to PVC figures lately, anything that's popular or hard to get is just getting a re-release, usually in much larger numbers too. This has pretty much destroyed the figure after market and ruined a lot of peoples investments in their figures, to the extend some people can't even make their money back that they spent before shipping.

 

But back to the question of morals associated with lotteries and people scalping. At what time does it become okay to start marking up the price of your doll? I mean if some back in the day won three Beato's (aiming for one) you'd want them to sell the other two for cost price, but now I couldn't imagine anyone selling her for such a low price.

 

tl;dr When is it okay to mark-up the price of a DD?

  archeotech said:

tl;dr When is it okay to mark-up the price of a DD?

 

I personally don't see the problem in asking a bit more for a limited release that has already been a while ago, since it is of course worth more as a sold out limited...I only hate that people think they can ask any price because it's a limited.

 

There is more to the worth of a doll than it being hard to get.

If your Saber looks like you have dipped her into dye, rolled her around the dirt, has nothing of the full-set etc., than that doll is definitely not worth 1500$ or more. Some people though tend to think that, and these are (next to the "I soley buy a doll to sell it for double the price because I can") the real problematic people that tend to distort the real worth of a doll on the market.

Man, there is this one body on ebay from the Saber Alter II (only body + box) and they really try to sell it for $1.663,60...JUST THE BODY.

Because it's a non-limited body that belongs to a limited doll, crazy.

 

For example, I saw someone selling a Dollshe Bermann (pretty much one of the rarest and most sought after BJDs) on ebay a few months ago for a whopping $4.250,00...guess what, he sold.

Why? Because he was in a full-set and absolutely not played with, the person had bought the doll and had kept it and it's full-set in the bag inside the package for years. It included all the extra parts you were able back then to optionally (!) buy with the doll, even the magic eraser you got for free was still in it's package. THAT is a truly limited doll that deserved it price, also because only 11 of these sets had been made.

You can't compare that to a doll that someone had removed from the package, displayed and played with, especially if the doll was available in a higher number or like Saber Alter II available as pre-order.

 

So, when is it okay to mark up?

When the doll is a limited doll in at least a good shape, with the parts included that really make it limited (i.e. in most cases the head itself and for some collectors the clothes too) and after a certain time has passed.

Exception:

- If a doll is crazily sought after

- If it's made by a customizer who is super popular and for whatever reason hyped by people

It's really hard to say sometimes for what something goes, because usually prices tend to go up and down, while others pretty much stay the same.

 

Also the more time passes the amount of full-sets, dolls in good shape etc. goes down and down, thus in many cases the price goes up because it's harder to get what you want.

And sometimes dolls get popular way later, while others that were popular are not so popular later anymore.

Taste of many people, and the hobby itself, changes during time and thus also the price.

 

(I also think this whole "oooh, it's limited!" thing is sometimes so silly...sorry, why pay for a ordinary, dark brown, long fiber wig in a style you get pretty much everywhere and which is so ordinary that 8 out of 10 people wouldn't even realize it's from "oh so limited full-set blabla" 180$?

I also think it's silly that the standard heads are suddenly worth crazy prices as soon as they have the pre-painted face-up by Volks, because lets face it...DD face-ups are no masterpieces and rather plain and easy to duplicate :/)

  Innocentsake said:

Just for the record entering with all three retailers (Volks USA/Kerbey Lane/We Love Dolls) is in fact allowed When I was researching this I asked Bailey (who is an employee of the Volks USA store) about entering with all three of them. There is actually no problem in this and to keep from winning more than one of the same doll you simply have to make sure you're sending the exact same information to each one of them.

 

Kerbey Lane & We Love Dolls are Authorized Volks Retailers. Once they get all their entries in and generate the list of winning names they simply send it to the Volks store via e-mail so they can compare it to their own list to make sure they don't pull the same name more than once. So there actually isn't much more work that goes into matching the lists of names up.

 

And when Volks says:

  Quote

Each customer may enter the lottery for one of each item. If we receive more than one entry for the same item by the same person, we will cancel all of that person's entries.

They are actually just talking about their own lottery at Volks USA, this in no way applies to entries sent in for the lotteries run by Kerbey Lane & We Love Dolls. They work together to make everyone happy which is really nice for those of us who are able to enter via any of them

 

I stand corrected, thank you for the information.

@SchroedingersCat: No problem

You can see on yahoo auction a user named yakumo1941 selling 4 DD aoko aozaki...

 

 

I think that limited Pre-Order would be fairest system.

  Wei said:

 

I think that limited Pre-Order would be fairest system.

 

 

It probably would, but then Volks would never be able to keep up with demand.

Well, over 6 month to make DD KOS MOS and MOMO. And KOS MOS outfit ain't the easiest to produce.