Doll collecting is "depraved?"

@ katnaper, mitsuki

 

I agree it's fun, otherwise i wouldn't share my opinion....however.

 

like i mentioned in the "edit" for my post, it keeps being brought up on Den of Angels and maybe a few other places on the internets in a fairly repetitive and negative feeling, over and over and over, to the point of "beating a dead horse"...

 

so, i'm probably overly-touchy about the subject now because I just feel like people should

 

I don't read a lot of sites, so I didn't notice. That is too bad people are negative about it. There is already plenty of negativity out there. I am hoping that in the future, you can set your browser to filter out negative things. Look at how crazy YouTube comments are. There is no shame in those comments sometimes. Just awful. When confronted about why they make such awful comments, posters say that they are not like that in real life. Then why are they like that online? Because of the anonymity? I don't think you should be out of line just because no one can see you.

 

That picture you posted is so cute!

Me too. Haven't really read much on DoA or been active in any other forum so I gave my opinion. Its kinda fun trying to speculate on what makes them say the things they do and trying to see things from their perspective. Kinda like how most people at my work don't like my dolls because they think its creepy and I'm just 'huh? I don't get it?' Doesn't bother me one bit what they think, they may have bad experiences or overactive imaginations or phobias and what not but that's their thing. Like zombies and horror movies are not my thing cause they give me nightmares. To each his own. If I can deal with all their little idiosyncracies, its only fair they deal with mine. Kinda live and let live. Mind you if they force me to watch a horror show, I will bring a horde of dollies with me to creep them all out

I'm big into live and let live. Fortunately, the people that I work with are largely "nerds" or have interests in various other subcultures too. I don't get much judgement. more genuine interest than anything. I think humanity as a whole would be much better off if we stopped judging each other for our odd eccentricities. Sadly, it's not in our nature.

When my boss remembers to ham it up, he fake acts totally confused that I have dolls. Sometimes he forgets though since he has been seeing them for years. I guess I am judging him too by thinking he is weird. Why go out of your way to pretend someone else is weird? haha

 

But I agree with Silverwing. It would be great if we all stopped judging each other. It is too easy to do it though.

anyway, this whole thread is a mountain out of a molehill.

 

How is that so? I'm just curious. Its a topic where Gunter was curious about what would make a person say the hobby is depraved and was actually asking how one can understand that logic. I had honestly thought it was a discussion of why people thought that way and how they could say it about one hobby and not another, not a discussion of whether it bothered or worried us who are in the hobby or not.

 

But, then again, I could be wrong. I don't really know what's going on in anyone's heads. :peace:

 

Random, but that's exactly what I was thinking. I was more so pissed off he could generalize an entire group of people like that especially when he just said "dolls" and that in itself is such a vague term, but then it piqued my curiosity if anyone could come up with WHY someone would think that way. I was merely wondering if anyone else could possible come up with ideas why they would think that, and what not. I've been in the hobby far too long to give a damn. Honestly, I just don't give a f**k. It is my hobby and I'm here for the fun. It is just interesting when you get someone using that particular term (Depraved).

well then...Gunter, if you want my opinion on the answer to that question, it's because anything in society that falls outside of societal norms has, is, or will be called 'depraved' as a derogatory way of referring to it. this is usually a self defense mechanism.

 

i.e being gay or having gay sex was frequently referred to as being 'depraved' and still is by some people. maintaining the sense of "normalcy" in human society is the only way a lot of people are able to feel 'safe'. maybe there is an evolutionary reason for this.

either way: any time people encounter a societal phenomena that doesn't fit within cultural norms, someone somewhere will be scared by it because it challenges their perception of the society they fit into, and many people's method of psychological self defense is to actually attack the thing they are scared of.

 

doll collecting =/= being homosexual, but they both share the common ground of being something that is on a cultural and societal borderline, even falling outside of that borderline for many people, even in 2013.

 

when your identity (which a lot of people shape around the predictability of the societal norms they adhere to) is challenged, the person can feel very threatened. going back to the reference to being gay, there's basically thousands of stories or scandals about committers of anti-gay hate crimes, or preachers, protestors, etc who then were later outed as being gay themselves.

 

metaphorically speaking: it's possible the guy is in denial about liking dolls or finding them attractive. people often use 'depraved' as a word especially when referring to things they find (sexually) taboo.

metaphorically speaking: it's possible the guy is in denial about liking dolls or finding them attractive. people often use 'depraved' as a word especially when referring to things they find (sexually) taboo.

 

And I think we have arrived at an answer. In the end the guy is projecting his own guilt and inadequacy onto you (Gunter), when secretly he wants his own DD version of...I can't say it, the name is too hilarious...SSS--SSS--Spready Mary!!!

metaphorically speaking: it's possible the guy is in denial about liking dolls or finding them attractive. people often use 'depraved' as a word especially when referring to things they find (sexually) taboo.

 

And I think we have arrived at an answer. In the end the guy is projecting his own guilt and inadequacy onto you (Gunter), when secretly he wants his own DD version of...I can't say it, the name is too hilarious...SSS--SSS--Spready Mary!!!

 

Awesome psychoanalysis, chibinezumi! Brilliant!

In the end the guy is projecting his own guilt and inadequacy onto you (Gunter), when secretly he wants his own DD version of...I can't say it, the name is too hilarious...SSS--SSS--Spready Mary!!!

 

Oh my NOOOO!!!! Anything but that

I think a major factor in various comments that doll collecting is weird and whatnot could stem a lot from merely the base requirement of interaction. Even if the DD sits on a shelf for the rest of her life and was bought directly from Volks, the collector still had to dress her at least once. Maybe some people assume that if a guy has a doll and is going shopping for it and buying clothes that aren't something like unflattering Army cammo that covers from head to foot, that the guy is either a failure pedophile or he's dressing his girl in the clothes that he wishes he could cross dress in himself. It makes just about as much sense as assuming that if a girl is married, is of child bearing age, and has no children that she is not fulfilling her role as a female and instead wasting that time on dolls. Both of these assumptions are stupid. I don't understand why it's not ok for guys to like cute things. Even when Raven and I 'came out' to his family about our DD at a family reunion no less... I was so proud of him that he said that Yuriko was his and didn't even finch. I knew how much time we spent talking about what we would say when we got tired of hiding our DD. Even after he said that, I could feel the weird stares because his family just couldn't understand why a guy would have a doll. So I simply piped up and said that I was totally ok with it because it gave him a reason to learn sewing. It felt a bit absurd having to give such a lame reason for his hobby because it was something that they could easily grasp. For both of us there are so many complicated and very emotional reasons why we collect. After I gave them a logical reason, there seemed to be no more issue.

 

I've even seen it in my own family that simply having my DD be such an everyday part of my life, they still don't get it even though my room was always filled with dolls or stuffed animals. They have such a strong need for our family to look normal that I've always been seen as the weirdo. My DD have helped me have a more normal life in my own way and I want to say, "Hey look, I'm being more like everyone else and I have a family I want to talk about!" And yet my oldest sister (who has 3 kids) wants to go on and on about them and I don't mind, but the moment I mention my dolls and try to reciprocate in a normal social way, she is instantly bored, her eyes glaze over, and I can see her mind just switch off. If my brother is there, she can talk to him extensively (he also has 3 kids) and they both can have a meaningful conversation. My sister's reaction is the most blatant, but I can often see varying levels of the same thing in most of my family except my mom (who has actually called our DD her grandchildren ) and my second oldest sister who also still has many of her stuffed animals and dolls from when she was younger.

 

With someone calling doll collectors depraved, it really seems to come down to judging someone on a meter of if they are closer to normal or not, and what normal means is based on what that individual can or chooses to understand.

 

by the way, i see topics similar to this often brought up on Den of Angels and various *chan boards etc. i think it relates to the fact that "we" (as in, doll collectors) often have low self esteem or psychological issues. feel free to deny it if you think it's not true, but i personally think that damaged self esteem and unstable mental well-being is closely tied to this hobby in some ways.

 

I readily admit that I have self esteem issues as well as not being mentally normal. Just reading my posts and seeing a picture of me makes it easy enough to tell. Just like some of the other posts, I don't spend my time on DOA to know what's going on there. I simply find it too overwhelming so I just subscribe to the threads I'm interested in and that's it.

 

What I don't understand is the perceived negativity that goes with it. DD are my medication and therapist all in one. I am well aware I'm not normal because I have Ausperger's, meaning I'm autistic. I can't often make too much sense to myself in my head. Dividing up various parts of my past and present personality into separate DD so far is what has helped the most in learning to function more like a 'normal' adult. Before then everything would just clash and get all confused in my head, turning into unexpected emotional explosions and meltdowns that would shock everyone, even myself. Now when I start confusing myself that badly I can identify what DD personality is being so noisy/vocal and isolate the part of myself that's being bothered by something. Not being able to do that makes that perpetual autistic little kid inside throw epic tantrums, and creating chaos in my adult life. I very literally need my DD to function. Without them I can't get on with my life because my mind gets so caught up with who I'm trying to be, who I used to be, and who I used to want to turn into, and thinks that most of those old mental snapshots are what the current standard is. Much of my life I felt trapped between all these things, even when they were no longer pertinent.

 

Naiomi is everything I wanted to be in high school. Tama is the perfect little boy I wanted to have someday, but knowing how screwed up/not normal I am, I can't willingly know I'm passing that genetic garbage onto a child that has no choice in the matter. Dolly may not be a DD, but he's just about as important as one in our house. He's pretty much Tama's stupid and macho friend, but he also helps me break out of my obsessive compulsive cycles. His arrogant random comments often show me how stupid I'm being and allows me to stop. Rainie is all the happy memories I had as a kid just playing with my stuffed animals without a single care in the world. With her I can remember how happy and silly I love being when my depression gets seriously or dangerously bad. Ringo is my little writer and she's made up of just stories and the wonder they contained. Another one who will soon have her intro story is a version of myself in DD form. She has all of the motherly attributes that I wish I could have with a consistency that I can't maintain over the long term. Eddie has to be cute because he's irritating and often blunt, two distinct traits I have to battle with myself all the time (I annoy myself like crazy.) Bree really holds a very special place in my heart because she's the autistic preschooler I've had hidden inside since I had to start growing up when I went to kindergarten. To even pretend to be normal I had to create a grownup persona that would deal with the grownup world because the autistic girl couldn't. Even in grade school the 'grown up me' would react to her in the same ways that other people reacted to me when I was being 'bad' (aka not appearing normal.) It has taken me many years to have as high of a self esteem that I do now, because the level of verbal abuse I hurled at my autistic self was enormous. Having Bree as a DD has had a huge impact on how I view myself because now the little autistic girl can come out and play and just be her truly silly self. Before I could do that, she seemed like this little monster that was stuck inside of me, crying, screaming, and lashing out like a wild animal because my grownup persona/side didn't know how to deal with her. If she was a real child and was treated the same way, I would have been put in jail for extreme child abuse. Even thinking about it makes me sick. Yet simply for making an appropriate container for her to just be her happy self without fighting to be noticed. By doing that it's like the best of both worlds because I can still get on with my adult life.

 

A lot of this may not make any sense to anyone but me, and yet this is how I deal with my extreme differences from those people who feel like they have normal self esteem and a stable enough mind. I'm really glad that this topic came up here. Depending on the type of comments people make, it can be a very deep and complicated topic. Also for me even if I had seen the similar topic on DOA I wouldn't have replied. I feel safe on these forums and feel free to speak my mind because my friends are here.

 

Just because you have the personal opinion that we are just 'beating a dead horse' you also have the option to not reply. I'm not trying to be vicious at all, I'm merely stating a fact. There are some weirdos like me who do need it.

 

~Sister Kyoya

That is fascinating, Sister Kyoya! I didn't realize for a long time that I was compartmentalizing aspects of my personality into my DDs as well. It is a strange concept I guess. It is like I am acknowledging all those aspects instead of just trying to seem like I think adults want me to seem. I don't think I am going to ever grow up. I will just interact with others in a grown up way when I need to. Those people I know who haven't grown up either are always the most fun. There are plenty of people who don't understand a hobby like this. I don't have to talk to them about their hobbies either (if drinking and bragging about sexual conquests that may or may not have happened counts as a hobby).

I will just interact with others in a grown up way when I need to.

 

This could be the quote of my life. Yup, sums it up completely.

 

For me I have to have those direct links built into my DD, otherwise I have a hard time connecting with them. Often I feel like I have the attention span of a goldfish. The picture in my head of this is that a goldfish is only interested in what is right in font of them at any given point in time. If the thing moves outside their vision they forget it pretty easily. I keep lists all the time so I don't forget the details of anything I find really important, but also for me taking DD photos very often is my memory. I have always been very good at remembering object, buildings, layouts, etc. but over long spans of time the people get erased from my memory. It is very strange looking back at my memories because it looks like I was always lonely, despite having three older siblings living in often small apartments. So having my DD photos sorted on my computer by month and year I can look back and remember what I did. I had to do the photo story of Tama and Yuriko visiting the college because I knew that without the pics within three years it might be utterly erased from my mind. Even a year after I took my web design class, I happened to be staring at my textbook and it took me a couple of minutes to remember why I even had the book at all.

 

This has been one of the biggest impacts that DD have had on my life. They are very much Marlin to my Dory brain (Finding Nemo). One of her quotes puts it in a nutshell:

 

"No. No, you can't... STOP. Please don't go away. Please? No one's ever stuck with me for so long before. And if you leave... if you leave... I just, I remember things better with you. I do, look. P. Sherman, forty-two... forty-two... I remember it, I do. It's there, I know it is, because when I look at you, I can feel it. And-and I look at you, and I... and I'm home. Please... I don't want that to go away. I don't want to forget. "

 

Even some of my other DD are based around some of my favorite things or memories that I wouldn't have a 'use' for otherwise. One of the DDdy I hope to make someday is an anime-like version of my favorite Barbie when I was a kid. I loved that doll like crazy but I don't know what happened to her. She was also much prettier and glamours in the 80s. She's one I really want to have around and remake a lot of her clothes. She would cause all those severely happy memories to stay more on the surface of my consciousness and to have even more happy memories made because of it.

 

I do have to apologize for the monstrous previous post, I had no idea it was that long. Even so, there was a lot I left out

 

~Sister Kyoya

metaphorically speaking: it's possible the guy is in denial about liking dolls or finding them attractive. people often use 'depraved' as a word especially when referring to things they find (sexually) taboo.

 

And I think we have arrived at an answer. In the end the guy is projecting his own guilt and inadequacy onto you (Gunter), when secretly he wants his own DD version of...I can't say it, the name is too hilarious...SSS--SSS--Spready Mary!!!

 

and i haven't even added SPLADY CASTY to the MFC DB yet! (she's not as explicit, but her name...)

also, that was directly what i was alluding to in my original comment even if we're joking about it. there's a fair chance the guy actually secretly likes dolls or is envious that you have them and his choice of words betrays him.

 

Sister Kyoya i won't quote your whole post to avoid spamming the page with TWO wall-of-text posts, but it was very insightful and i also agree with you on many points. i was surprised to find we have a lot in common in some respects for our motivation of collecting dolls.

 

like you, i collect "stuff" as a form of therapy. i say "stuff" because before dolls there was always something else (though the first thing i ever collected was Barbie since they were given to me as toys). dolls are probably the highest tier of my interest even though i'm still very interested in figure collecting because there is more of that "interaction" aspect you mentioned.

 

obviously, i actually see a real and qualified therapist as well as several other doctors many times a month. i have both physical and mental diagnosed disorders, and i've had them since i was a kid, but they are quite difficult to deal with as an adult due to that i received insufficient medical and psychiatric care from my family while i was growing up (in other words, while my brain was still developing, a lot of problems i suffer now could have been prevented if i had received appropriate treatment).

so, as a supplement to professional attention now, dolls are a very effective form of "side therapy" for me to deal with when i have bad feelings, strange thoughts, or am in physical pain, etc, which is quite often.

 

I readily admit that I have self esteem issues as well as not being mentally normal. Just reading my posts and seeing a picture of me makes it easy enough to tell.

 

this part made me laugh - not at you, but because it's almost word for word how i would describe myself. i feel OK being open about the fact that i'm an abnormal person because it's the cards i was dealt and i'm playing with what i have... but as you said, anyone who follows my photos or reads my posts for a long time or talks to me, is soon going to realize that i'm not "100% here". there is something "off" about me, and i am aware of this but i can't actually do very much about it despite knowing it. even when i'm on medication that will be very obvious at times. trying to "act normal" is very stressful, and i don't need more stress than i already experience!

 

i don't have aspergers but i have a disorder that sometimes presents itself as being fairly close to autism... i'm friends with two people who have it though, and their behavior is at times quite similar to mine in some ways. i also relate to what you mean when you say "you can't make too much sense of [your]self" which is an issue i often have had to deal with too. being confused about your identity or not having a firm sense of self can be supplemented by creating an extension of yourself, in other words, creating a character for your doll. i'd also note that lack of firm confidence in your self-identity is tied very closely to low self-esteem.

 

i also like to take aspects or pieces of the past as inspiration for some doll characters. this is part of the therapeutic process; it's a creative effort that helps you deal with trauma you experience or certain emotions and unfulfilled wishes or desires that are unresolved.

 

i would not use the word "compartmentalize" so much as "split up" in my case, since i also like to give dolls antithesis traits (i.e, i am a very chaotic person who is not good at performing tasks in a linear and sensible manner, so i have a doll who is a "straight-laced and practical person" as well as being an "obsessive neat-freak", neither of which i am- but her devotion to order and logic is so obsessive that it does come back to relating to me: an obsessive person who wants to be in control of everything).

 

it was really interesting to read how you felt about "being an autistic girl" and then alluding to child abuse as a metaphor. i also have a doll that i consider the "dysfunctional child doll" - she often appears to be suffering in various mentally or physically abusive ways, which i would never wish upon any REAL CHILD ever-- but that when i see or think about her, i can relate back to myself, and it makes me feel better inside.

i think that it is definitely creepy if you look at that example *outside* of my personal context... but within the context, it's a therapeutic exercise of projecting those very negative feelings on to the doll so you can stop (or at least deal with) feeling them as an adult person.

 

i am 100% cognizant of the fact that dolls are objects - in fact i'm very vehement that i feel this way - but i also think that if you create a character or persona for your doll, or even perhaps just dress and style them a certain way, it's a projection of your own subconscious desires for something (such as, i belive that a lot of straight guys collect dolls because they lack a 'perfect' girl in their relations or personal life IRL - at the least, i have had at least one male collector tell me this directly, but it's also frequently inferred) and as a result, this can be a negative OR positive thing - or both.

 

i have talked about this on DoA a bit before but it's a different forum with a different atmosphere and focus, and frankly a place where i feel uncomfortable using free speech (even though at times, i still do).

here, i wouldn't say i'm 100% comfortable. aside from being a strange person, because i like to speak my mind and i'm a bit too blunt, i may offend people unintentionally... but, in general the atmosphere is more open to this type of discussion in a non-negative light.

 

like i said, my comment about 'beating a dead horse' came from frustration of people's general refusal to comprehend and/or psycho-analyze the whole issue on other forums (definitely not just DoA, but it's the first example that came to mind).

 

i wasn't trying to be vicious any more than you were, i was expressing that i was pretty angry about the fact that the majority of people - sometimes even people who collect dolls - are firmly warped in their own stigmas no matter how you explain the situation to them.

there's a lot of hypocrisy, denial, and repression going on in the minds of some doll collectors - i mean, all people can suffer those things, i just think that doll collectors are especially prone to falling into those types of dangerous thought processes. i don't see it as being coincidental.

 

also, it's quite interesting that both of us have similar (but different) mental disorder(s) and are prone to writing excessively long posts, isn't it?

i think that this is another way of "making sense" so i do understand why you want to discuss the topic.

 

obviously, i am actually happy to do so (duh) but i usually assume that people only hear what they want to hear which is also where my frustration with the original topic title and subject came from and perhaps may continue to seep through.

 

oh yes, and i use photography (visual medium) and writing (in any form, but i do keep a private diary) to keep track of time too! i have some (not serious, but still present) problems with experiencing amnesia in both short- and long- term manner, so i relate 100% to the need to use photos or writing as a memory supplement. it's like being in a really low budget, much less dramatic version of "Memento" lite!

This is probably pretty "duh", but personally, I don't want to aspire to be "normal" or feel that those that think they are "normal" have some right to tell me I'm doing it wrong. The "normal" people aren't the interesting parts of humanity nor do they hold the keys to say what is right.

 

I don't think there IS a "normal" person on this planet. There is a view of what is accepted in each society, but I will bet that no one meets all the bullet points.

 

To me being "normal" is only really the easy way out of living. "Just follow these guidelines and don't rock the boat and no one will point you out." They are the sheep and cattle of society. This is not to mean I'm for anarchy or anything, but what I mean is that most "normal" people don't want to step outside an established boundary. They basically limit themselves for fear of being scorned or they just have no interest in exploring other sides of life. To me, those that DO step outside of those boundaries and limits are usually the ones that explore the world, look at things from another angle and create a lot of the great things that most people think are wonderful. Do you ever hear about a "normal" person creating the next big invention, novel or painting?

 

So then the question is, does that mean that all creative people and thinkers are somehow damaged? Honestly, I'm not a psychiatrist, so I can't say, but maybe in some ways society has created labels and a stigma for those outside the "norm" as a means to keep their limited boundary way of life secure and unthreatened.

 

I see a lot of intelligent and insightful replies to this thread and if we are all "abnormal" then that is fine by me because I doubt you would ever see a "normal" person willing to investigate and explore any subject of worth to this degree.

 

I think one of my favorite sayings applies here really well:

"You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same."

 

I think the cool people of the world are the "explorers of life" not the boring "norm-ies" and their self-imposed limits.

 

Be proud that you are not the same as everyone else.

 

So then the question is, does that mean that all creative people and thinkers are somehow damaged?

 

There are actually numerous scientific and psychological studies that show very high correlations (note: you can prove almost anything with a correlation study, but you can't disregard it completely) between mental illness and the ability to think and act creatively. i can source you some if you want, or you can go digging yourself.

 

Also, it should be noted that a lot of artists, scientists, mathematicians, etc - "creative people" - take drugs or have admitted to taking the kinds of drugs that either enhance or mimic symptoms of mental illness.

 

Many works of art (in all mediums) and also some scientific inventions are the direct result of the creator/inventor's use or abuse of certain types of illegal or borderline legal (though notably, not always illegal at the time) drugs, especially certain stimulants and hallucinogens.

 

edit: Also, reading the biography of almost any famous artist or scientist on wikipedia will usually reveal that they suffered some kind of mental malaise or "damage" even if they never used any kind of drugs.

I agree with leitan that it seems to be the more creative people are mentally different from the bulk of the normal population. Normal just means the trait or traits that are more common or what is average. If you don't think in an unusual way, it would be a lot harder to come up with something new. Those who are different see something completely different even in everyday life. Everyone is has different strengths and abilities so that the population as a whole can flourish. You can't have all sheep and cattle, but you also can't have all da Vincis.

 

There also seems to be something about technology that is making peer pressure stronger and encouraging conformity even more. The "easy way out of living" is easier to define. We aren't as isolated as before when there was less communication. If you can't tell what other people are doing, how can you conform? Now it is almost like all the subcultures are spread out now over the mainstream. You don't see so many pockets are extreme alternative cultures. Anime has gotten mainstream. It used to be hard to find someone else who enjoyed it. Having a mohawk used to be quite unusual and indicative of a particular lifestyle and point of view. Now I get in the elevator at work and I see one or two people with mohawks per day. 10 and 12 year olds can be heard singing pop song they heard about being in the club (where they most likely have never been) and it doesn't strike too many people as odd. It is like the boundaries are gone and things mean less now. There are not really new and revolutionary things but instead better versions of past things. Where are the jetpacks and floating cars? Where are the food replicators and transporters? haha

 

There is a lot of communication going on because of new technology but less of it seems heartfelt. I appreciate this place for being so open. It means a lot to have a place you can openly go through an occasional existential re-analysis of who you are.

This discussion has become really fascinating. As an individual living with a diagnosed mental illness, and very likely at least one undiagnosed, and married to someone in a similar state I often wonder what, precisely, defines an abnormality as an "illness" or something "wrong". I sometimes wonder if, perhaps, my depression could have been diagnosed at a much earlier age, and there could have been some medication that would actually completely cure it, but the tradeoff would have been that I could never be able to think "outside the box" as I so often do, would it be worth it? If Autism could be "cured", I might be a drastically different person today, but would that difference necessarily be better? In general, I'm pretty content with who I am today. Sure life may not be the easiest all the time, but I don't think it's always a breeze for anybody. I really don't miss all the "small talk" and shallowness of most of the social interactions I see going on around me day by day. I enjoy thinking and living much differently than everybody I work with.

 

I know people who are completely unable to cope with social situations at all, and yet are amazing computer programmers. Are they broken? I think that the biggest problem is that all too often, people just never find the places their skills and talents fit, or how to apply those talents in a way that works for them. Society is structured in a way that most benefits "normal" people, and people who can't work within that structure fall through the cracks. Someone who doesn't interview well, know how to "schmooze", or work social networking will often be completely overlooked by employers even though he may be very highly skilled in his field.

 

I really find it fascinating just how many people with various forms of "mental differences" seem to gravitate to this community. Is collecting dolls really that "abnormal" an activity? It never would have occurred to me that this was a hobby not significantly recognized by mainstream society. I would have thought that dolls would actually be considered much more respectable by most people than figures, simply because dolls have nearly always been a part of human culture all around the world. Seriously, what kid doesn't play with dolls at some point in their lives? Ok, for boys they are called "action figures", but it's really not that different is it?

 

Anyways, I think I had a point when I started this, but I feel like I may have forgotten it (do we ALL have memory problems around here?) and am now just kind of rambling so I'd better quit while I'm ahead.

And I think we have arrived at an answer. In the end the guy is projecting his own guilt and inadequacy onto you (Gunter), when secretly he wants his own DD version of...I can't say it, the name is too hilarious...SSS--SSS--Spready Mary!!!

 

This made me laugh, because before I was talking to the person who had blindly called this hobby "depraved" and was turned into quite the fascinating discussion, he had actually been introduced to me because he had stumbled upon Beatrice (he loves Umineko), and wanted to know about her. At that time he was a friend of a friend, and freaked out when I started telling him about her price and what not. I think the problem for him is that he's only had the sexual side of exposure. If anyone has every seen what a general doll thread would look on any Chans under a /gif/ section you would know exactly what I'm talking about. That is such a narrow view though, and making a judgement of a vast community off of that is nothing short of ignorant, and personally someone like that loses respect points with me. I'm understanding, but as someone who has to daily tolerate narrow-minds because of my family, and as someone who is just the opposite of that (I'm too accepting), I don't tolerate it with people I CHOOSE to socialize with.

 

To join the sort of not exactly off topic part of this discussion:

Because we are talking about it, I've personally noticed that what I put in my dolls things I wish I was, or small aspects about myself that I consider bad, and have turned into something positive to try to prove myself that it is okay. (I have major self-esteem issues, and am constantly fighting to be positive about myself which is just hard.) I suffer from chronic depression, and so staying happy and interested in anything is an exhausting task (This is also the cause of why I'm always flipping dolls), but they are such a great way to keep me positive about all the things I have issues about myself with, or even notice all the small wishes of what I could be, but I can't quite achieve. It may be wrong to live vicariously through a doll, but as someone who is not that social it is easier than a person, and I think more positive, because I don't actually have the ability to become jealous of a doll.

 

These facts are very hard for anyone "normal" to understand too. Even now my family just sort of shrugs off my collecting, because they don't get it. I collect to make myself feel happy about something even if it is for a short period of time. It isn't the cheapest way, but I've found it is the most effective. Like Leitan, I have a proper therapist, and a couple other doctors, but it is good to have something that is outside the soft sciences standards to help one cope in whatever way they need to.

 

It is unfortunate that people aren't just willing to be more understanding. They don't have to get it, but I think they should always support it. I'm constantly fighting with the fact that I have zero support to do any of my hobbies (To my family they are a waste of money and a practice of materialism that they can't possibly support). I think most folks will be unable to understand it and that's just how it is. I'll still talk about it though. I'm quite stubborn in the fact that if someone with a "normal" hobby can talk to me about it even though I honestly don't have interest in it, but will still listen because I can tell they care about it, so if I want to talk about my less-than-normal hobby then they should show me the same respect. I am hopefully making sense, I often feel I don't. >.>;

I saw a news article about some very introverted maybe autistic kids completely opening up to iPads. The visual interface that doesn't require spoken words brought them out of their shells. It meant to me that there is nothing abnormal about them. They just interface with the world and communicate more visually. This one child drew an amazing horse because her brain power was shifted more to visual it seemed. They trained her to talk more and she lost the ability to draw that way. It is like you sacrifice one ability for another. Most people aren't so artistically inclined. Maybe those who have difficulties communicating with spoken language have then tremendous strengths artistically and creatively. Society as a whole benefits from that amazing creativity.

 

Gunter, we all support you. I know I support you even if you don't have a single DD. It doesn't change that you are a fun and creative, compassionate and empathic person. I am cheering for you and all the other wonderful people who bravely described their challenges in life. You guys are great.

Such fascinating discussion we have here. I may had lost somewhere in the middle of the topic but I think there might be one factor that actually influenced people in thinking that collecting dolls are depraved.

 

Let's take Angel Philia as an example (http://angel-philia.com/) and when the "normal" audience looks at these artistic figures, what would they think?

 

Anyway I do firmly believe that I have some sort of mental disorders too. Come on, anyone who read my photostory I composed like 2 - 3 years ago will definitely see that. Like what Leitan said, it's completely true. I am projecting my ideal view of how a girl should be into my lovely girls.

Let's take Angel Philia as an example (http://angel-philia.com/) and when the "normal" audience looks at these artistic figures, what would they think?

 

VMF/AP dolls are meant to be sexy and marketed on that factor. so yes, obviously anyone with any sexual stigma is going to form an opinion about that.

in fact the brand deliberately went in that direction because it sells so damn well. you compare how 'sexy' the first VMFs are compared to AP dolls and it's clear they realized what kind of brand image they want to develop. which is exactly the kind of image people are self-conscious and often (unnecessarily) concerned about.

 

VMF/AP aren't marketed to "normal people" any more than Mattel markets "Barbie" to boys. sorry for using a gender stereotype as a metaphor, but i hope people understand the point i'm trying to make.

 

(fwiw: i own as many VMFs as i do own DD, and i actually prefer them in many ways to DD at this point, but i'm definitely not their main demographic...more of an anomaly perhaps. however i do love them, and i started and try to keep updated the discussion/FAQ thread about them in the Off-Topic doll forum)

 

Like what Leitan said, it's completely true. I am projecting my ideal view of how a girl should be into my lovely girls.

 

i think a lot of people don't want to admit this. and i use the word 'people' not just to be PC but because guys (straight or not) are not the only people who do it, although they might do it the most (that last part is just speculation).

 

it's not always to fill a sexual or romantic absence, i.e like Kyoya was saying one of her dolls represents her ideal self in high school, but it's basically a similar line of thought for many people.

 

dolls are mirrors of people's desires, and most people's desires include sex or sexual relationships, or at least the desire to be unconditionally loved. if this desire is already filled then they might have another issue to deal with (an issue being an unresolved desire).

this isn't just within DD community and i'm not even talking about dolls that have to be overtly sexual, since a lot of people just build a doll that reflects their ideals on all levels. then there are also people who use dolls to express their own identity rather than to fill a void of another person (maybe some people do both? i think i do, to a certain extent)

 

i see it a lot on BJD forums also, but it's like a huge elephant in the room that no one ever wants to talk about, and if it is brought up, most people deny it or attack the idea to save face. if someone reads this and disagrees with me that's fine, because i don't think that every single doll collector on the planet does this, but i think it's far more common than is ever addressed.

 

in fact, you can extend it to all levels of doll collecting: little girls (and boys) who play with dolls are projecting or maybe even taught to project what they want to be like as adults. people who collect those "lifelike baby" dolls are sometimes compensating for the lack of a real baby or disappointment in their own real children. Tonner fashion dolls are mostly collected by women in the 50+ y/o range, maybe because they express a vintage beauty of a 'bygone era' that they want to relive. go through almost every genre of even mainstream doll collecting and you can usually make some sort of deduction about the person collecting the dolls based on what kind of dolls they are (note: obviously, your deduction may be incorrect)...

 

by the way, one of many reasons my favorite anime character is Ayanami is because so many people perceive her as a blank and submissive slate upon which they can project their own desires about what the perfect girl should be like, but she has that famous line when she gets really angry: "I am NOT a doll."

 

...and then everyone ignored it and i guess the ironic point here is that now, of course, there are dolls of Ayanami everywhere (figures count in this sense too) and i own many of them.

another female anime character who had huge emotional issues with being treated as or perceived as a doll was Misaki Mei from Another, and the same fate befalls her too - now she really is a doll (Azone50!)

 

sorry if this seemed to ramble off point, but for me another appeal of doll collecting is partly to deal with being treated or viewed "like a doll" myself in real life, for most of my life. not just being objectivized but also having the desires and perceptions of what i "should" be like both physically and in my personality, VS the reality of what i am/was actually like, forced upon me frequently by the majority of people around me... and so we loop back to therapeutic benefits of collecting dolls.

 

oh, and since i have this experience, here's 2 more cents:

 

i think it's perfectly okay to build dolls around your perception of the perfect person if that is filling an emotional void for you... but if you ever meet someone and find yourself involved with them on an emotional level that your doll was made to fill for you, please remember that people are not dolls and you can't expect people to live up to your expectations, perceptions, or desires in the way that your doll will never fail you on.

 

i actually think that for some people, a doll is a better partner than a person, because there's less pain and difficulty, confusion or conflict involved. this is why the trope idea of the android girlfriend (like Chobits) is so popular and i'm fairly sure it will become reality one day, even if it doesn't exactly match up to the ideals of something like Chobits, we are already heading in that direction as a society.

 

oh, and if you want a funny or satirical take on this idea, watch the Futurama episode where Fry downloads Lucy Liu.

 

edit: Gunter also raised some points i wanted to address, but i feel like this is wall-of-text-y enough, so maybe next post i will talk about those.

 

...VMF/AP dolls...

 

Interesting point of view. I am considering getting one of these because I view these as "art" instead of something "erotic". Next time I will head over to the subforum and see how to secure one when I have the money.

 

i think a lot of people don't want to admit this...

 

Wow. Just wow. Salute you for your opinions on this because you had just said everything about this. To me, this is a personal issue. Normally people keep this a secret in their heart on how they perceive their own dolls in their own point of view, that's why almost nobody can really open up on this type of topic. How they perceive their own doll's personality can be related to how secretive a person hide their files in their harddisk, cause God knows what sort of personal files do they have.

 

*Side note: I am really waiting for Danny's smart doll to be released to the public so I can "upgrade" where I see fit"

Interesting point of view. I am considering getting one of these because I view these as "art" instead of something "erotic".

 

thing is - they are both. they don't have to be mutually exclusive at all. art is often erotic and erotic things are often art, and what is or is not erotic is quite frankly often subjective.

 

for example, i posted a picture (not of VMF, of my BJD) to flickr recently that showed her stomach. it has a personal meaning to me and that meaning is not sexual in *any way* -- but i got a lot of favs and comments saying things like - "sexy picture!" "impressive! you made a doll look sexy!" - when that was the last thing on my mind at the time (as a side note, i do take pics that are meant to be sexy sometimes, but this one was simply not). so there's an example of how subjective stuff like this is. your own interpretation can be completely different to someone else's.

 

anyway, i got into VMF dolls because i noticed their faces and bodies were somewhere between Dollfie Dreams and BJD which really appealed to me. i also find them more poseable than even my most flexible BJD and i have to worry less about breaking them. there are so many things i like about them that don't relate in any way to sex, but i'm not going to tell lies and say "oh, my doll isn't sexy" because sometimes- they are. and VMFs, specifically, are sold as "sexy dolls" - it's part of their brand image, it's what they sell, and i actually find it fun and a source of humor at times which is why i like hanging out in the thread here (TLDR of that thread - "everyone, discuss doll boobs for 27 pages!") but that's not my main incentive for buying them at all. they're just good dolls that are really well made and have faces and body sculpts that i adore. you should hop in the thread anytime you want to ask a question since i don't want to derail this one any further.

 

 

Wow. Just wow. Salute you for your opinions on this because you had just said everything about this. To me, this is a personal issue...

 

thanks - i agree with pretty much everything you said there. it's a personal issue tied into your sense of security or shame which is something a lot of people struggle with.

 

heh, do we have a thread about Danny Choo and Mirai yet? i feel like if we don't, we should... i'm half asleep right now so don't mind me.

This is indeed an interesting topic and everyone has brought up good points. What people think of me hasn't stopped me from enjoying my gals, but it can be draining sometimes hearing the same negative comments and assumptions over and over.

 

It would be great to meet everyone in person and talk about these things, but I suppose that would be difficult to coordinate. If I ever win the lottery I'll pay everyone's way

 

I especially like what leitan has to say, as these are things I often talk about to other people but either they are not interested are they think I am a little off kilter (i.e. crazy )

 

Yes, there are things that we don't really want to admit for fear of exposing ourselves even though I have a sense a lot a people here would be understanding.

 

For instance: the Angela Philia dolls are artistic (as are all my dolls; vinyl and resin and silicone). Yet for me, the thing that draws me to them is the sexual component. They are dolls, but to me they are sexy. But when I say that I get the, "Oh, you don't like REAL women" or "You CAN'T get a real women", and other similar statements. I used to photograph real, live human female models but a photograph isn't real either. It's a fantasy because the models wanted me to photo edit so that could have an ideal look, whether it was for an agency or just themselves. It's an idealized version of a woman just like a doll can be. It doesn't mean I treat women badly at all who don't fit that mold. Besides, women have their own idealizations as well for men and themselves. Heck, I keep working out because I don't like the way I look and have an ideal for how I'd like to be!

 

Anyway, not to get off topic so...

 

I don't own an Angel Philia but I sure would like to, in particular the Maya model