Anime "new school vs old school"

hello everybody! figured i would bring this here to the off topic board seeing as i have noticed *alot* of anime fans hanging around the forums.

 

now im not the oldest apple in the fruit bowl but im old enough to remeber alot of the (in my opinion) glory days of the anime revolution. as a younger man i fell in love with it beacuse of the themes, the music, and the fact that to enjoy it thoroughly you had to actually "learn" a bit about the culture it came from so it in a sense promoted cross culture understanding. we all know shows like this, space fortress macorss, cutie honey, fist of the north star, revolutinary girl utena, etc.

 

not to mention the over exaggerated and sometimes down right trippy styles of animation.

 

but now adays alot of the anime coming over seas feels... how to put it... prepackeged. now dont get me wrong, for every ten bad animes i usually find an amazing gem of a modern anime in there but still it feels as if alot of it is "pre-westernized" to make it palitable to the demegraphic. (just watch fox on a saturday morning and youll know the sort of shows im talking about.)

 

am i the only one who feels like this? i surely hope not, what do you guys think? if im just being crazy let me know...

I've been watching a BUNCH of anime lately and I do see what you mean about newer series feeling "prepackaged" or cookie cutter. So many shows are school driven ( because of the audience the makers are after ) it takes a bit to make a series stand out from the pack.

 

The one thing I really like about newer series tho is the look and styles they use now. In full HD, they're just amazing to watch and hear. The color, the backgrounds, the feel of some of them is just amazing. "Robotics Notes" is a recent one I watched where I felt this. The story was great too but the music really fit and the art was very well done. So of the newer stuff I've been watching, this one stood out a lot.

 

But the older stuff, and when I say older I mean 90's and early 00's, seemed to take more pride in story than in visual style. That's not to say a show like "Gundam Wing" was lacking in visuals, it just had a story that was so in depth, it kind of overshadowed the looks.... in my opinion at least. Same with "Outlaw Star" and "Cowboy Bebop", both those shows had scads of visual style and music but the stories were exemplary too.

 

I like the older anime from those periods for sure but I also like a lot of the newer stuff. But as was said before, for every 10 cookie cutter shows, one will stand out and make you take notice. I guess without those filler shows, you can't have stand outs.

 

 

Billy

true enough the visual styles do improve through the decades. of course thinking about Outlaw star reminds how underappreciated the "space opera" genre is. it used ot be a staple of anime, now it seems like no animation companies wanna touch a good space themed story

Nah, I don't think you're crazy. With a few exceptions of some movies from the mid 80's, the vast majority of series and movies I've watched are from 1995 or never. The change over just the last 15 years is quite obvious.

 

I think that the trippy animation style you mentioned was a result of the animation techniques used back then; back then they used mostly (entirely?) hand drawn cells and could make the characters do just about any moves. Nowadays alot of animes are 3D rendered, even though they look 2D, and I'd imagine that it'd be hard to get the same trippy animation style through 3D.

 

Another thing I've noticed is the lack of fantasy style series nowadays. Stuff like Record of Lodoss War and Twelve Kingdoms. I guess Guin Saga is the closest in recent years.

 

Feels like most stuff nowadays is school, ecchi, action or teen-love related.

 

 

You mentioned FOX so I'm guessing you're in the U.S. What's your source for anime? TV, DVDs and/or Fansubs? If it's TV and/or DVDs than I'd imagine that the contents has certainly been tailored to the intended audience.

 

 

Another thing I've thought about is wether our senses get dulled after watching anime for many years. Maybe the stuff we thought of as cool in the beginning has turned main-stream for us. I noticed that nowadays I tend to rate most series 6/10 while I used to give alot more 7, 8 or 9/10 votes before.

I like both new and old style anime. Mind you with the newer tech, the graphics and actions are smoother and there are a lot of the old school anime that I wish, they would upgrade to HD versions. I know my husband was impressed with one of the HD-fied Gundam series. Like people have mentioned in the old animes, they focused more on the stories vs the graphics and it was those stories that made you want to watch. Looking back at a couple of them now, I find myself thinking that I wish they would update the graphics kinda like what they did with say, Hunter x Hunter. I loved and watched the old version avidly but I also love the 2011 version as well and its nice to see how they improved the graphics and continued on with the story.

You mentioned FOX so I'm guessing you're in the U.S. What's your source for anime? TV, DVDs and/or Fansubs? If it's TV and/or DVDs than I'd imagine that the contents has certainly been tailored to the intended audience.

 

well for me i get alot of my anime input comes from fansubs through the internet. around here its impossible to get a good lineup from the televsion now-adays, which i honestly dont watch a much of anyway lately.

Yeah, I've also noticed a change in anime styles over the years. Originally, it was just made for Japanese audiences, and the few that did come overseas weren't catered to western tastes so much. The Japanese have a lot of fun with their puns and references to their own pop culture, and translators would still try to do their best to keep true to that (or in manga, if you were lucky, the references were kept and insightful translation/cultural notes were tucked nicely into the back of the volume or margins)

 

Now it feels like newer content is the same stuff, rehashed with different looking characters. The artistic styles don't feel as varied as they once were, though every now and then there is a standout series. Most of my favorites are the older "classics" like Lupin III and Dr. Slump (or Dragonball--I like Akira Toriyama's humor) but there is one newer series that really sucked me in. It's called Tiger and Bunny--it's a show set in a world where a small number of people are gaining special powers via evolution (or something like that) and they're called Next (like the "next step"). It's a superhero show, but instead of saving people for the greater good, most of the sponsored heroes are just in it for the money. It has a lot of interesting concepts, great animation, and a really great plot to it. The character building is done well, and I really love the art style they chose for it. I recommend the anime (which was done before the manga version) because there are some details that are changed in the manga. Otherwise, even when I try to give things a serious chance, I haven't found any new series that I enjoy.

 

It kind of makes me sad because when I was younger, even though I'm 21, it felt like when I was 12 at least there were new and exciting things coming out. Then last year I started diving into the old stuff and realized that it wasn't that I'd lost interest in anime, but because what I was looking at wasn't as interesting as what I started with.

It kind of makes me sad because when I was younger, even though I'm 21, it felt like when I was 12 at least there were new and exciting things coming out. Then last year I started diving into the old stuff and realized that it wasn't that I'd lost interest in anime, but because what I was looking at wasn't as interesting as what I started with.

 

i know the feeling. its espaecially hard when you find a good anime that you personally like for all the right reasons and nobody else really "gets it" beacuse their to cuaght up on all the lowgrade...

 

for instance i remeber wacthing all of AIR TV (looooved it) but i know for a fact that at the time, none of the other people i could talk to anime about would have even heard of it, let alone undestoood it (they where all on the naruto hype). it was a slice of life/parnormal drama. not a lot of action, mostly story devolpment and sad stuff. i hate to sound like a hipster but there ya go....

i remeber wacthing all of AIR TV (looooved it)

 

AIR TV! Now that was a series with alot of drama and feelings.

 

BTW, speaking of slice-of-life shows with drama; have you watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien? It's been nearly 8 years since I watched it so I've forgotten alot of details but I remeber it was quite good.

have you watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien? .

 

afraid i cant say i have. im always hearing someone with a recomendation for something to see, but the sheer fact of the matter is that even for all the bad ones, there is still a veritable ocean of good animes to get through and with my free time (which is near non-exsistent) i can only get to things in my own time. there are still awesome animes i havent even finished, although i started trying to watch them years ago...

 

kinda brings up a second great conundrum really... not only finding the right anime, but finding the time to enjoy it. somedays i hate being an adult.

 

still need to finish: serial experimants lain, mobybleep, one peice, pani poni dash...etc, etc...

I miss the drawing style from the 80's-90's. I loved You're Under Arrest, Cowboy BeBop, Outlaw Star, and Appleseed just to name a few(I love CLAMPS manga work, the animes never seemed to do their style justice). I feel like the line art is so uniform nower days. I miss the think lines and bold shading

I miss the drawing style from the 80's-90's. I loved You're Under Arrest, Cowboy BeBop, Outlaw Star, and Appleseed just to name a few(I love CLAMPS manga work, the animes never seemed to do their style justice). I feel like the line art is so uniform nower days. I miss the think lines and bold shading

 

True as it is that alot of the art style comes out watery (i think thats the word i want) nowadays that really falls to choices of the prodicers and art directors. there still are thankfully some very dedicated teams of anime enthusiasts that belive in letting their passion show through in their work.

 

wanta nabashin is good example. one of the top directors of comedy and non-sense animes currently, he always makes sure his work has a very defined charetiristic, almost reminiscnet of the mid 90's style ( like excel saga for example ), and sometimes even harking back to ceartin patterns we see in very early work, in his shows like the nerima daikon brothers, which both in several slap stick elements and ani,ation style can be likend to lupin the III in some places.

 

i think a big problem with alot of this decline from both the art to the story is due to (and follow me on this) CGI... in and of it's self, its not a bad thing, but when you rely on it too much for your animation you loose a ceartin amount of the personal element that used to be put into anime. its so manufactured that the stories suffer beacuse its such a templeted process now....

 

Hideo Miazaki (who is to retire this year after his final movie, which makes me terribly sad) hardly ever incorporates CGI into his work, which is why it takes him and his team at studio Gibli so long to turn out a movie. but the resutls speak for themselves in works like spirited away, castle in the sky, howels moving castle and so forth.

 

but yeah.... made that respone waaaaay longer than i meant... sorry

 

but yeah.... made that respone waaaaay longer than i meant... sorry

 

I agree completely with everything you've said though. It's just easier to use a smooth, unweighted line with CGI.

It's just easier to use a smooth, unweighted line with CGI.

 

 

Well i dont completly condem the use of CGI, just the "over" use of CGI. in truth (and i suppose im makeing myself a bit of a hypocrite but oh well) some work actually benfits from the use of it. it really in the end depends on the story of whats being conveyd in the anime. blue sub 6 for instance used heavey CGI ( for it's time) but the stroy it'self sort of called for the need to.

 

its not the CGI it'self that bothers me, its the tendency to become lazy when you become dependent on it for alot of the minor or major art details in anime. personally i love how a lot of manga's nowadays have found inovative ways to incorporate it into their art, beacuse it for some reason dosent take away from the creative integrity of the story due to the labor intensive nature of the art anyways. (ken akematsu is a good example of this process in his work Negima)

I think I actually prefer newer anime in general. There are some old ones that I love, and there is a certain charm to old anime that's not just due to nostalgia (because some of the stuff I like is older than me ^_^; ). For older shows, I love Evangelion, Sailor Moon, Escaflowne, Five Star Stories, and They Were Eleven to name a few. But, when I was really getting into anime as a pre-teen/teen, I had a hard time finding series that I actually liked. I'd try a bunch of different shows and drop them after a few episodes. And sometimes, I return to a show I used to like and I'm not so impressed with it anymore (like Last Exile, don't kill me).

 

I like the smoother, more polished art and animation we get in newer anime, and I often prefer the current style aesthetics to some of the older ones. I can easily find shows I really like now and most of my favorite shows are newer rather than older. Also, as a girl who like BL, there are finally more high quality shows aimed at my demographic ^_^; Especially in the last couple years.

 

I think over time, anime just gets kind of repetitive, because they use the same popular ideas over and over. For people who have been watching anime for a long time, the lack of originality stands out more. Plus, nostalgia makes people prefer old stuff. But, I think there still are lots of newer anime with good story and character.

I think over time, anime just gets kind of repetitive, because they use the same popular ideas over and over. For people who have been watching anime for a long time, the lack of originality stands out more. Plus, nostalgia makes people prefer old stuff. But, I think there still are lots of newer anime with good story and character.

 

Yes, I think this is a lot of it: perspective. It's just plain hard to sort out the great from the mediocre noise. Sturgeon's Law, I believe it's called: 90% of whatever it is sucks, but there's that 10% that's worth sticking around for.

 

Let's admit it right here. Something that makes that 10% list of awesome is going to be great no matter when it was made. Conversely, something on the far low end of the bell curve is going to suck no matter when it was made. Era may affect style on a superficial level, but each series' or film's merits really should be judged on an individual basis in my open onion.

 

When you first start getting into anime, it seems like there's great stuff everywhere you look. Part of it is that anime fans are quite the word-of-mouth community, so if you strike up a conversation with another fan, it doesn't take long for recommendations to come out. And when you're new, odds are, a lot of that stuff in that elusive 10% is stuff you haven't seen before. Plus, when you haven't seen much anime, everything seems new and original.

 

It's after you've watched a chunk of that 10% that things start to suck. You keep searching for that thrill you had originally, but statistically speaking, the odds are you're going to get something in that mediocre to poor 90%. And once you've seen a few anime, good or bad, you start to see the patterns. The school stories, the teenage protagonists, the harems, the reverse harems, etc. Yes, some of those make the 10% of awesome, but usually not because they have those cliches, or perhaps even because they subvert or play with the cliches in some way.

 

The other thing, at least for me, is that it's *really* hard sometimes to tell the quality of a show when it's still airing. The ending can make or break a story completely. That makes it even harder to sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

 

It's why I don't follow series as they air if I can help it. If people are still talking about a series after it's wrapped up, odds are it's at least on the better end of the bell curve, even if it may not land the elusive 10% range. That, and any series "feels" a lot better pacing-wise when viewed in marathon instead of in one-week increments, at least to me.

 

TL;DR: There's really not much that qualifies as "awesome" period, it's just that time helps clarify which ones deserve the title.

 

So I'm curious if anyone wants to dig into the numbers: how many 90's series are being praised in this thread (or rank in the top 50 or so on say, MyAnimeList or AnimeNewsNetwork), versus how many actually aired over the course of that entire decade?

 

Edit to Add: Also, keep in mind that we're post anime bubble here in the US at least, *AND* have seen a huge explosion of internet access and fan-subbing in the past decade. Used to be anime came over here thanks to big studios licensing what they thought were sure hits, sort of cherry-picking good stuff to bring over. Now every anime can be found subbed online, regardless of whether or not it's any good, making it even harder to tell what's actually decent.

Yes, I think this is a lot of it: perspective. It's just plain hard to sort out the great from the mediocre noise. Sturgeon's Law, I believe it's called: 90% of whatever it is sucks, but there's that 10% that's worth sticking around for.

 

So I'm curious if anyone wants to dig into the numbers: how many 90's series are being praised in this thread (or rank in the top 50 or so on say, MyAnimeList or AnimeNewsNetwork), versus how many actually aired over the course of that entire decade?

 

.

 

hmmm very true. beauty does lie in the eye of the beholder essentially. i know what "i" personally enjoy, and i accept that just beacuse i dislike something, dosent mean it isnt treasured elsewhere.

 

as for going into the numbers... ugh i may hate math, but im seriously curious now.

 

true enough the statistics on that have to be more than a bit disproportinal...i do remeber haveing some of my earliest installemnts of anime about in that decade, the best examples of ones that were getting the on the air over in the states was definatly the SCFI channel (im older than the SCFi channel... god i feel old), but fidning ones that were aired more frequenlty....

 

if i wrack my brain im sure i can come up with a list for the most part though of what i remeber from then

 

lets see: sailor moon,

robotech (aka grand fortress macross)

galaxy railways,

fist of the northstar\

gundam wing,

Blue seed (from the video rental store so i dont think it counts)

 

goodness i know there are more, but i cant put names to thim after all this time. i do remeber one with a series of elemental based warriors, but the name escapes me every time, i only really remeber one of the villians who always telled "quake with fear" as his attack... sheesh. so Poofiemus has given me a bit of a chestnut to crack...

Poofiemus makes really good points about nostalgia and Sturgeon's Law, which is why I'm critical on claims things were better in the old days.

 

The truth is, in discussing good old series the same titles consistently pop up. Nobody mentions mediocre/poor generic animes X, Y & Z that also aired in the same decade. The same will happen a decade later looking back on today.

 

I tend to like current stuff more, or at least the same. Nowadays the series tend to be based on light novels rather than manga, but there were plenty of adaptations back then too. On the whole, they are prettier and use somewhat less stock footage. Also, Type-Moon and Shaft exist now, with their wonderfully quirky niche series.

 

I have a fair collection of anime from before the Great Recession, some of which has not aged well at all when I rewatched them years after buying them. I'm considering purging some of them, but maybe when I feel less lazy. XD

 

Generic Potato-kun harem lead needs to GDIAF thx. But he existed back then too. The roach always survives after all.

 

EDIT: Ha! Censorship!

Edited September 25, 2013 by Guest

I feel like the characters got younger and younger looking over the years but maybe it is sampling bias. There are a lot of sexual situations with characters that look elementary school age. Then again, it isn't like the characters from older series were really older. I have seen some older translations where they purposefully say the students are university students to avoid associating too much innuendo with high school or junior high students. And the idea of incest and loving your little sister was around in older series too.

 

I think mostly I am complaining because I have a hard time watching newer series because of all the movement. I feel like I am on a roller coaster ride. Some older series had that too though. I don't know whether Gurren Lagann counts as an older series or not but I couldn't watch that either.

 

Maybe I don't really have any complaints and it is just the 10% rule in effect. Or maybe I am at maximum capacity for the number of things I like. I don't want to add more. The more favorite series you add, the more custom DDs you want.

Or maybe I am at maximum capacity for the number of things I like. I don't want to add more. The more favorite series you add, the more custom DDs you want.

 

Ha! If you want to avoid custom DD inspiration, I think you'll have to avoid all fiction in general, regardless of medium, age, genre, or country of origin. *points at Agatha, who is based off an American webcomic* Ideas. They're everywhere!

 

Interesting about the characters seeming younger over the years. I wonder how much of that is also perspective? People all age over time, but unless a series does a time skip now and again, anime characters are kind of frozen in their age.

 

I have a fair collection of anime from before the Great Recession, some of which has not aged well at all when I rewatched them years after buying them. I'm considering purging some of them, but maybe when I feel less lazy. XD

 

Generic Potato-kun harem lead needs to GDIAF thx. But he existed back then too. The roach always survives after all.

 

EDIT: Ha! Censorship!

 

You know, I really should go back and rewatch some series I used to like in high school. After having rewatched several of the movies I loved as a kid, it is pretty fascinating to see what's held up over time, and what hasn't.

I know these aren't anime, but I'm sure with some "research" time I can come up with analagous anime titles. Out of cartoons I liked when I was little, one that held up surprisingly well was Brave Little Toaster; yes, the premise was weird, but they actually incorporated the character's appliance status pretty deeply into their characters, so they really felt like appliances with personalities rather than humans in appliance bodies, and the art direction's remarkably dark, which works really well in this case.

 

Conversely, there's Rockadoodle, which I have to relegate to the "Oh god why did I ever like this?" pile. In fact, it actually has a few of the bad cliches you see in anime, just with a fluffy-animal twist that frankly doesn't quite work. It's one of those fish-out-of-water kind of stories, where it's pretty clear that the main character is meant to be just an audience proxy. And actually, I consider Edmund in Rockadoodle *worse* than the Generic Potato-Kuns out there, as they tried to give him a personality and only made him irritating. And then the supporting characters may as well be cardboard cutouts, and the villains are just pathetic really.

 

(BTW, I LOVE the term "Generic Potato-Kun"! Reminds me of one Twilight review I read, where the reviewer said that she got tired of trying to figure out what Bella was supposed to look like from the very vague descriptions of her, and thus started imagining her as a giant Lego brick. I guess from now on if I run into a Generic Potato-Kun, I'll try imagining him as an actual potato.)

 

Now I'm kind of pondering what the new Sailor Moon anime is going to be like. :/ Not only has style marched on in the meantime, but the whole magical girl genre has evolved too--Nanoha and Madoka come to mind, as both built on Sailor Moon's foundations and then proceeded to take a completely different bent on it. I don't envy the studio the task they have, trying to balance modern expectations against existing fans' nostalgia.

You could be right, Poofiemus. I had to make a Vulcan DD:

 

 

That is so funny about "Generic Potato-Kun." In episode 3 of Tenshi na Konamaiki/Cheeky Angel, Megu says guys are potatoes and sees them that way. haha

 

 

Now I'm kind of pondering what the new Sailor Moon anime is going to be like. :/ Not only has style marched on in the meantime, but the whole magical girl genre has evolved too--Nanoha and Madoka come to mind, as both built on Sailor Moon's foundations and then proceeded to take a completely different bent on it. I don't envy the studio the task they have, trying to balance modern expectations against existing fans' nostalgia.

 

with all that to think abotu, im begin to question the validity of nostalgia. i keep the argument up in my mind, but in the long run taste is what matters the most. After all i know people that enjoy some anime's (and media in genral) i just dont get... and in exchange i know that there is plenty of anime i like that i sprobable just plain ridiculous.

 

now as to the magical girl genere, that one is a true nostalgia trip. one of my earliest favorite genres... hmm makes me think if im harping too much of "old" verses new" and not enough on weighing the indivdual merits of genres. they all have there golden eggs after all, and their rotten apples.

 

now that would be a task for the ages,

 

going through and putting together a ranking list of all the anime in every genre and fianally getting the numbers in on which are the true kings of their niche. but i doubt anyone, even the most hardcore of the fandom have that sort of time or dedication.

 

also to chime in on something mitsuki said, i know the feeling. if i had a dollar for every time i wanted my own hand held version of sailor mercury, i could probaly afford to just hire a scientist to make her from gentic scratch... i think i may have a problem but i honestly have come to terms wth my insainty

Admittedly, I am newer to the anime fandom. I hadn't seen too many older ones aside from the occasional one I caught on toonami as a kid. I suppose some of the "older" ones I currently like are Evangelion and Tenshi Muyo! I think Tenshi probably the first series I had ever watched all the way through, and I knew from day one of watching NGE that I had a serious 2d crush on Asuka Sohryu. Although lately, (and maybe due to the animation styles used) I really love some of the newer ones like Angel Beats! and Highschool of the Dead.

Admittedly, I am newer to the anime fandom. I hadn't seen too many older ones aside from the occasional one I caught on toonami as a kid. I suppose some of the "older" ones I currently like are Evangelion and Tenshi Muyo! I think Tenshi probably the first series I had ever watched all the way through, and I knew from day one of watching NGE that I had a serious 2d crush on Asuka Sohryu. Although lately, (and maybe due to the animation styles used) I really love some of the newer ones like Angel Beats! and Highschool of the Dead.

 

 

tenchi muyo! now that one i remeber fondly, my sister took it up as one of her favorties as a little girl so off course i ended up watching it. did you watch all of the tree "first gen" series. i remebr tenchi muyo, tenchi universe, and tenchi in tokyo. not to mention the spin off "pretty sami" i havent gotten around to the "2nd gen" series they did, talk about a show that keeps the canon open for the fans .

 

the harmen comdey/drama genre is a hit or miss art if you ask me. the charecters have to be able to play off each other right, or the show dosent click for me. some people do it right. i think "personally" that the harem element needs to be more of a plot device than the story it'self. like with tenchi (most of the time) and negima for instance. love hina sits on the edge for me but still proved itself worthy of the awards it earned.

 

now that brings up a poser... i know alot of nintes to modern anime fans veiw "love hina" more often or not as the definitive of the "harem" genre. i know there must be one older than that, there has to be. anybody got any ideas?

To be honest, I actually hate most of the new school animes. They are usually cookie cutter stories which get popular for no reason, and too much involuntary fanservice, and pretty much no plot. Most of the main heroine in the harem tend to be mary sues. Not to mention the annoying giant eyed moe moe style is getting on my nerves these days since they look exactly the same. I tend to condemn these illustrators too.

 

The exceptions of new school are Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Fate Stay Night, Hakuouki (Finally a good shoujo-esque series), Natsume Yuujinchou (A good slice of life.), Towa no Quon (Kinda avoids the cookie cutter, but characters aren't too powerful, but hey, it needs to be mentioned.), Code Geass and Tiger & Bunny.

 

I tend to lean towards older stuff, like Cardcaptor Sakura, Cyborg 009, Armored Trooper Votoms and Magic Knight Rayearth.